Any one doing Tropic Marin Balling system?

[rc1626]

Like a good quality two part (say, B-ionic), it is effectively providing a small water change. How much depends on how much you are adding calcium and alkalinity. Adding 1.1 dKH per day of alkalinity and the balanced amount of calcium effectively provides for about the same amount of water changes as a monthly 3% water change.

Thank you Randy.

 

[Lou Ekus]

It is our (Tropic Marin's) opinion that the true Balling Method has certain concrete advantages over a "good quality" two part systems. As always, I encourage members on this thread, with questions about the Balling Method, to call me (413-367-0101). While I always appreciate the input that is given on threads like this, and there is some really good information here, there is also always some subjective information. While I have great respect for the moderator of this forum, I offer my phone number to try to avoid the repeated discussions of the inevitable contradictions of those views that will be posted against them.

 

[Hans-Werner]

Does using this system allow you to do away with water changes? That as if the sole purpose of your water changes was to replace minerals and trace elements. Does part C add these back thus eliminating the need for them?
Thanks.

Our Tropic Marin Balling System is really completely balanced and results in calcium, bicarbonate (calcium carbonate + CO2 for coral growth) and complete Pro-Reef sea salt. Like Lou I think two part additives will not result in complete sea salt because they lack some components. I assume that most lack sulfate. It is very easy to check for sulfate: Carefully add some hydrochlorid acid to the alkalinity solution (sulfate can hardly be added with the calcium solution) to make it acidic and destroy all bicarbonates and carbonates. Then add a few drops of barium chloride solution. If sulfate is present barium at once precipitates as barium sulfate (white precipitate). Most two part additives available in the US are not available in Germany, otherwise I would check it myself.

If there is no sulfate added with a two- or three part method and you are doing no regular water changes at all but only adjusting the salinity to 34 or 35 psu by replacing some aquarium water with RO/DI water with time most of the sulfate will disappear from the tank with the water taken out of the tank. So I do not agree with Randy that a two part method is like a small water change. No one would do water changes without sulfate in a reef aquarium for very long.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I was going to let Lou's comment stand alone, but... lol

OLike Lou I think two part additives will not result in complete sea salt because they lack some components. I assume that most lack sulfate. It is very easy to check for sulfate:.

But you've not tested any to see?

Even my DIY has an appropriate amount of sulfate when used as directed.

As to other brands, they make claims about their products that are quite similar to yours, and I have no reason to doubt them any more than Tropic Marin.

Examples:

ESV:

http://www.esvco.com/products.html

"In addition to supplying highly concentrated calcium and carbonate alkalinity required for calcification, B-Ionic Calcium Buffer System is also formulated to provide all other important major, minor, and trace elements in the proper ratios to duplicate the composition of synthetic seawater."

Two Little Fishies C-Balance:

C-Balance from Two Little Fishies is a two-part, calcium and alkalinity maintenance system that adjusts calcium, magnesium, and strontium ions to natural seawater ratios, and achieves a balanced ionic residual.
Part A ingredients
Calcium Chloride, Magnesium Chloride, Calcium Bromide, Strontium Chloride, Lithium Chloride, Rubidium Chloride, Nickel Chloride, Chromium Chloride, Zinc Chloride, Copper Chloride, Cesium Chloride, Iron Chloride, Manganese Chloride, Cobalt Chloride.

Part B ingredients
Sodium Bicarbonate, Sodium Carbonate, Sodium Sulfate, Potassium Bicarbonate, Sodium Metaborate, Sodium Fluoride, Potassium Iodide, Sodium Selenate, Sodium Vanadate, Sodium Tungstate.

 

[Amoo]

following

 

[Hans-Werner]

Like I mentioned, those additives are not available in Germany. Do I see it right that your DIY has a third part that contains the sulfate? I believe the two part of Two Little Fishes is calculated correctly since it contains sodium sulfate. The disadvantage is that a mix with sodium sulfate adds more salt to achieve the same alkalinity than a mix containing magnesium sulfate like your improved DIY from 2006. Or are you talking about a different DIY?

 

[Lou Ekus]

"In addition to supplying highly concentrated calcium and carbonate alkalinity required for calcification, B-Ionic Calcium Buffer System is also formulated to provide all other important major, minor, and trace elements in the proper ratios to duplicate the composition of synthetic seawater."

Just one quick comment, Randy. No comment about Two Little Fishies product description. But in relation to other companies, the minute the word "important" is included, it makes me wonder which elements the company deems as "important" and how many they consider not to be and get left out. This ploy is used by many manufacturers in relation to included trace elements in lots of products including salt mixes. You will notice that the Tropic Marin product descriptions use NO qualifier, and just say “ALL trace elements”.

 

[Amoo]

Just one quick comment, Randy. No comment about Two Little Fishies product description. But in relation to other companies, the minute the word "important" is included, it makes me wonder which elements the company deems as "important" and how many they consider not to be and get left out. This ploy is used by many manufacturers in relation to included trace elements in lots of products including salt mixes. You will notice that the Tropic Marin product descriptions use NO qualifier, and just say “ALL trace elements”.

Lou I have a question here. I'm not on either side of this back and forth, but as a consumer I am generally curious. I know there are a few different Triton style tests on the market and I believe they all test for a different number of elements. When you say "All trace elements" can you put a number or even a ballpark number on that in relation to what we would see in Natural Sea Water?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Just one quick comment, Randy. No comment about Two Little Fishies product description. But in relation to other companies, the minute the word "important" is included, it makes me wonder which elements the company deems as "important" and how many they consider not to be and get left out. This ploy is used by many manufacturers in relation to included trace elements in lots of products including salt mixes. You will notice that the Tropic Marin product descriptions use NO qualifier, and just say “ALL trace elements”.

Yes, and that is the crux of the debate, and I would accept it if everyone couched it that way. It is not an attribute of the "method" chosen (two part vs using an NaCl free salt mix), but rather how manufacturers actually implement either method. Either method can be perfect, or less than perfect.

It gets down to debating what it means to match natural seawater residue (I actually think this is a serious open question) and what level of matching one may think is useful/desirable/attainable (which assumes folks can even agree on what matching means).

You say you do (or may do) a better job than two part systems do in matching a seawater residue. That's certainly possible. I've never seen any actual data for any of these products. I would caution, however, that such a claim is fraught with interpretation and misinterpretation.

When you say you leave a NSW residue of all trace elements, do you take into account trace elements incorporated into coral skeletons? Coral tissues? Coralline algae? Since even the uptake of the major ions such as magnesium can vary greatly from species to species, what does it even mean to say you match NSW ratio left behind? Behind after what happens?

For the better two parts, the difference from Balling does not relate to massive effects such as sulfate vs no sulfate (at least not for many two part choices reefers make). It is far more subtle and gets down in the weeds of what exact elements are provided, how important they are, and in many cases, perhaps not even agreeing on what is the NSW level of some of the much more obscure ions that vary with depth, location, time of year, etc.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Like I mentioned, those additives are not available in Germany. Do I see it right that your DIY has a third part that contains the sulfate? I believe the two part of Two Little Fishes is calculated correctly since it contains sodium sulfate. The disadvantage is that a mix with sodium sulfate adds more salt to achieve the same alkalinity than a mix containing magnesium sulfate like your improved DIY from 2006. Or are you talking about a different DIY?

The DIY I was referring to is with a third part containing magnesium chloride and sulfate, and is sold in the US by companies such as BRS.

I agree that implementations of these methods have different variations, and those using sodium sulfate will increase salinity somewhat faster than those that do not. It must be used in a true two part (not three part) such as B-ionic or TLF.

 

[Lou Ekus]

Lou I have a question here. I'm not on either side of this back and forth, but as a consumer I am generally curious. I know there are a few different Triton style tests on the market and I believe they all test for a different number of elements. When you say "All trace elements" can you put a number or even a ballpark number on that in relation to what we would see in Natural Sea Water?

There are approximately 70 elements in natural sea water, that are is small enough concentrations that we generally call them "trace" elements.

 

[Amoo]

There are approximately 70 elements in natural sea water, that are is small enough concentrations that we generally call them "trace" elements.

Thank you for the time and response.

 

[Lou Ekus]

Yes, and that is the crux of the debate, and I would accept it if everyone couched it that way. It is not an attribute of the "method" chosen (two part vs using an NaCl free salt mix), but rather how manufacturers actually implement either method. Either method can be perfect, or less than perfect.

It gets down to debating what it means to match natural seawater residue (I actually think this is a serious open question) and what level of matching one may think is useful/desirable/attainable (which assumes folks can even agree on what matching means).

You say you do (or may do) a better job than two part systems do in matching a seawater residue. That's certainly possible. I've never seen any actual data for any of these products. I would caution, however, that such a claim is fraught with interpretation and misinterpretation.

When you say you leave a NSW residue of all trace elements, do you take into account trace elements incorporated into coral skeletons? Coral tissues? Coralline algae? Since even the uptake of the major ions such as magnesium can vary greatly from species to species, what does it even mean to say you match NSW ratio left behind? Behind after what happens?

For the better two parts, the difference from Balling does not relate to massive effects such as sulfate vs no sulfate (at least not for many two part choices reefers make). It is far more subtle and gets down in the weeds of what exact elements are provided, how important they are, and in many cases, perhaps not even agreeing on what is the NSW level of some of the much more obscure ions that vary with depth, location, time of year, etc.

Randy, I believe that what Mr. Hans-Werner Balling means by NSW levels are the levels that are currently generally accepted by the scientific community as the concentrations of these 70 or so trace elements we are talking about, at the geographic and depth locations in which many reefs are found. These certainly vary somewhat, from location to location. But surely not as much as if we were looking at how these concentrations would vary if we were sampling say the Mariana Trench or the Long Island Sound.

 

[Hans-Werner]

To our salts we add all elements of the periodic table of elements except phosphorus (but it is contained in traces as impurity), noble gasses and radioactive elements for obvious reasons, in total 78 elements. I am involved myself in buying, grinding and blending all those salts.

The Balling Method published in 1994 just as the Tropic Marin Balling Method only adds calcium, carbonate and bicarbonate and in final outcome a little complete sea salt consisting of all the 79 elements mentioned. It does not contain additional magnesium or trace elements for growth of corals or coralline algae. Magnesium and trace elements consumption by different organisms is different, depending also from the calcium carbonate modification (high magnesium calcite or aragonite) formed by the organisms. A trace element recipe adding some of the essential trace elements in a certain ratio to calcium was first published in the following two years. Magnesium can be tested for and additional magnesium can be added separately.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Thanks for clarifying, Hans-Werner.

 

[Hans-Werner]

You're welcome.

Initially I wanted to post yesterday evening our time but managed not to log in from at home because I forgot the password.;Meh

 

[coral-boss]

I had a chance to meet Lou in person this past Saturday at my LFS in NJ. I never really though I was going to do the balling method because of how complicated everyone made it seem. After speaking with Lou for an extended amount of time he explained everything in a way that was easy to understand.
(Not saying I'm able to explain it to anyone else in a way they will understand) He took a good portion of his time to explain everything to me in a way that I understood. He really is a nice guy from what I got out of it. I guess the story is that I will be switching over to the balling method as well as the bio-actif salt after my next water change this upcoming weekend(fingers crossed). I will be taking pictures and tracking parameters along the way to see how this goes. Happy reefing everyone!

 

[Trevor40]

Could Part C be recommended to be used with a Calcium reactor to dose trace elements?

 

[Lou Ekus]

Could Part C be recommended to be used with a Calcium reactor to dose trace elements?

Not recommended. If you want to supplement trace elements use Tropic Marin Trace A and Trace K.

 

[Trevor40]

Not recommended. If you want to supplement trace elements use Tropic Marin Trace A and Trace K.

Thank you for the response. How would I know how much to dose? Also, if I am doing weekly 10% water changes would I even need to add trace elements in an sps tank? I am using Tropic Marin salt. I do run a refugium.