Apex compatible powerhead upgrade

[gbru316]

I'm currently running an mp10 and mp40 in my 40g breeder.

My goal is to Apex everything that I possible can. Given Ecotech's desire to not "play nice" with Neptune, I'll be moving away from the Vortechs when I add the Apex. So I need to find some new pumps since I don't want to rely on legacy hardware (wxm) to control things. Priority here is real estate and reliability -- I want the smallest, least obtrusive powerheads possible and I don't want to have to disassemble to clean on a weekly basis. Noise is the 2nd biggest concern.


Options:
1. Neptune WAV (aquabus)
2. Maxspect Gyre (0-10V)
3. Tunze 6055 (0-10V)
4. Reef Octopus Octo Pulse (0-10V)
5. Sicce Xstream (0-10V)

I'm leaning towards the Tunze because... Tunze. But aside from the name, I've no compelling reason to go that route. I'm looking for some feedback from people who have used one (or several) of these powerheads, or if there's another option that I'm not tracking, I'm all ears.

 

[Jeffcb]

Happy with WAV here so far.

 

[ZombieEngineer]

Check your local reefclub for a WXM. Module still works great even though it's discontinued.

If that fails, the WAV is just too powerful. I have one on my 65g and it's pretty strong at 1%. Might be too much flow in a 40b. Granted it's pretty comparable to a MP40 as far as flow is concerned so you may be okay if it goes exactly where your mp40 is now.

All of the 0-10V stuff is kind of a PITA to get programmed right. Takes a lot of virtual outlets and profiles to get something resembling reefcrest mode. I haven't tried it, but the sicce that communicate to the Apex over IOTA look really interesting and are a lot easier to program.

 

[A_Blind_Reefer]

not that this helps, but Neptune and Ecotech are sister companies now so who knows what the future holds for mp10-60s and apex integration. I have six wavs in my tank currently but I foresee Neptune dropping the wavs in favor of the mp10-60s (as the wavs are made by sicce)soon so I don’t think I’d recommend them right now.

 

[The Farmer]

I use the tunze 6055 and 6095 with a vdm module. Very easy to set up any type of flow that u desire. You can also down load profiles that are already adjusted for random flow

 

[rtparty]

I like Tunze and I like Apex but I would never "Apex everything" as you state. That is putting everything (as much as you can) under one single point of failure. Apex brains are known to die. It's basically a matter of when, not if.

Tunze on the other hand almost never die IME. So you can use the VDM to ramp the Tunze up and down, but make sure you have a way to get flow back online when the Apex bites the dust.

Also, as stated, Ecotech and Neptune are sister companies. They will 100% be playing nice in the future.

 

[gbru316]

Granted it's pretty comparable to a MP40 as far as flow is concerned so you may be okay if it goes exactly where your mp40 is now.

I just fired up the MP40 along with the MP10 (opposite sides of the tank). Even on the lowest setting, it totally overpowers the MP10 running @ 100%. Which isn't what I want. And it sounds like the WAVs are similar. Really, just looking for the maximum range for each pump to achieve optimum random flow.

And after more research -- the Octopulse 2 is 850-1600 (approx.) GPH, so that's out. Which leaves me with:


2x Tunze 6055's (250-1450 GPH)
2x Sicce Xstream SDC (270-2250 GPH)

I'm leaning towards the Tunze, simply because 4500 GPH turnover in a 40 breeder (plus return pump) seems a bit much.

 

[areefer01]

I'm not sure you understand how the Sicce Xtreams work. You do not need 0-10 v integration. Sicce and Kessil play nice with Neptune and use their IOtA stack. I use both and have to say Kessil and Sicce did it right.

Just make sure you buy the supported pump.

https://www.neptunesystems.com/downloads/docs/IoTa-Sicce_SDC_Pump_User_Guide.pdf

 

[gbru316]

I'm not sure you understand how the Sicce Xtreams work. You do not need 0-10 v integration. Sicce and Kessil play nice with Neptune and use their IOtA stack. I use both and have to say Kessil and Sicce did it right.

Just make sure you buy the supported pump.

https://www.neptunesystems.com/downloads/docs/IoTa-Sicce_SDC_Pump_User_Guide.pdf

You're right -- not sure where I got that the Sicce was 0-10V.

 

[areefer01]

You're right -- not sure where I got that the Sicce was 0-10V.

Well, not a right or wrong. It could be the other pumps are but the ones listed in the doc work wireless. You still have to download the app to your phone but after that connectivity to the Apex/Fusion is great. I have a single XStream SDC Powerhead and it works well. Pretty small, compact, and it worked as advertised. Easy to integrate with about the only odd thing is that I had to email Sicce for a updated firmware I think it was. Once that was done it works perfect.

It is a decent option if the flow requirement meets your needs. I have not tried Neptune WAV's so can't comment. I do have gyres so I guess I can comment on that. XF series 280 or older I believe are the only onces that use the icecap module to integrate with Neptune / Apex. Please check this in case I got the models wrong.

I have a XF280 - used to run a pair but one of the wires became exposed on the motor block. Use it for spare parts to make cleaning easier now but anyway one wasn't enough (210 gallon display) so I looked at options and ended up with a Hydros LE and a icecap 4k. This allowed me to add the existing gyre XF280 and remove a power brick. It isn't apex integrated (missed opportunity by Hydros in my opinion) but it does work well. My only complaint about the gyres is that they do need to be cleaned monthly. Cleaning isn't the easiest but if you have spare cages and blades it makes it somewhat faster.

40 breeder gyres may be too much. The Sicci would be nice - one on each side or two on the back facing to the front. Tunze though everyone says are great. Anyway I ramble. Check the doc to see if the pump works and go from there. It is a decent option.

 

[Breadman03]

I like Tunze and I like Apex but I would never "Apex everything" as you state. That is putting everything (as much as you can) under one single point of failure. Apex brains are known to die. It's basically a matter of when, not if.

Tunze on the other hand almost never die IME. So you can use the VDM to ramp the Tunze up and down, but make sure you have a way to get flow back online when the Apex bites the dust.

Also, as stated, Ecotech and Neptune are sister companies. They will 100% be playing nice in the future.

All of my current powerheads are Tunze controlled by my Apex. I am very happy with the setup. If my Apex goes down, simply pressing the button on the Tunze controller allows it to run without the Apex.

That reminds me, I've got to go check out slief's thread on RC and get some inspiration for my wave programming.

 

[Clownfishy]

I like Tunze and I like Apex but I would never "Apex everything" as you state. That is putting everything (as much as you can) under one single point of failure. Apex brains are known to die. It's basically a matter of when, not if.

Tunze on the other hand almost never die IME. So you can use the VDM to ramp the Tunze up and down, but make sure you have a way to get flow back online when the Apex bites the dust.

Also, as stated, Ecotech and Neptune are sister companies. They will 100% be playing nice in the future.

I would agree with this. For example, I connected my Tunze streams to my Apex and had an Apex failure. This then stopped the pumps running so I had no flow in the tank. Better to let the pumps or some pumps run on their own controller just in case the Apex fails. I wish they would default to the Tunze controllers when the Apex dies as I would prefer to use the Apex but will not risk that again.

 

[gbru316]

I would agree with this. For example, I connected my Tunze streams to my Apex and had an Apex failure. This then stopped the pumps running so I had no flow in the tank. Better to let the pumps or some pumps run on their own controller just in case the Apex fails. I wish they would default to the Tunze controllers when the Apex dies as I would prefer to use the Apex but will not risk that again.

Didn't realize Apex failures were so common. Definitely has me thinking a bit harder about the plan.

 

[ZombieEngineer]

Didn't realize Apex failures were so common. Definitely has me thinking a bit harder about the plan.

They are not, but flow is one thing that is so important, you need an automatic backup plan. This is why I run a gyre connected to a VDM instead of my head unit ports set to fallback 30 instead of using two WAV.

You are safe as long as you go through every point of failure in your system and make sure that there is not any single point that will kill all of your flow.

 

[areefer01]

Didn't realize Apex failures were so common. Definitely has me thinking a bit harder about the plan.

Not sure I would take these posts as gospel since it is only a few posts. No, Apex failures are not common. Does it happen? Sure. Same with about every other product in this hobby regardless of manufacture. We would all be fools if we said they are all perfect. But people automate with success using Neptune products which is why they have been in business for so long.

As @ZombieEngineer noted you can do some of which you want has part of the design but also include redundancy. Think about what happens when power goes out. Think about what happens if a power strip goes out. How does the system manage flow. All things to consider even when not using a controller.

 

[The Farmer]

I use both types of options. 1 being apex controlled and the other stand alone. That to me gives me a piece of mind. I use tunze on my apex, stand alone vortechs and a few AC pumps also. The AC pumps are plugged into my apex with the set and fall back both on

 

[gbru316]

Not sure I would take these posts as gospel since it is only a few posts. No, Apex failures are not common. Does it happen? Sure. Same with about every other product in this hobby regardless of manufacture. We would all be fools if we said they are all perfect. But people automate with success using Neptune products which is why they have been in business for so long.

As @ZombieEngineer noted you can do some of which you want has part of the design but also include redundancy. Think about what happens when power goes out. Think about what happens if a power strip goes out. How does the system manage flow. All things to consider even when not using a controller.

Definitely thinking a bit more about redundancy. We live on the Space Coast of Florida. Given the potential for long-term outages, we just had a whole home generator installed last week, which will go a long way towards mitigating that risk. (and if that's not sufficient, we've likely got larger problems and the tank will be a secondary concern).

Perhaps using a battery backup on the Tunze, with a N/O Apex relay, would work. If the Apex fails, the relay would open killing Tunze power and causeing it to transition to battery power.

Or a separate uController with flow sensor on the return acting like a heartbeat detector. If flow is lost, notify via email/text.

 

[Clownfishy]

Definitely thinking a bit more about redundancy. We live on the Space Coast of Florida. Given the potential for long-term outages, we just had a whole home generator installed last week, which will go a long way towards mitigating that risk. (and if that's not sufficient, we've likely got larger problems and the tank will be a secondary concern).

Perhaps using a battery backup on the Tunze, with a N/O Apex relay, would work. If the Apex fails, the relay would open killing Tunze power and causeing it to transition to battery power.

Or a separate uController with flow sensor on the return acting like a heartbeat detector. If flow is lost, notify via email/text.

Can you provide more info on this point as that sounds interesting. I already have my Tunze wired up to a battery using the the Tunze safety connector and would like them connected to the Apex but will not do that as I have experience with an Apex dying on me and they just stopped.

"Perhaps using a battery backup on the Tunze, with a N/O Apex relay, would work. If the Apex fails, the relay would open killing Tunze power and causeing it to transition to battery power."

 

[gbru316]

Can you provide more info on this point as that sounds interesting. I already have my Tunze wired up to a battery using the the Tunze safety connector and would like them connected to the Apex but will not do that as I have experience with an Apex dying on me and they just stopped.

"Perhaps using a battery backup on the Tunze, with a N/O Apex relay, would work. If the Apex fails, the relay would open killing Tunze power and causeing it to transition to battery power."

I admit I haven't fully thought out the idea yet and I have absolutely no experience with Tunze or Apex. I'm making some rather large assumptions here that I'd poke at a bit more if I go this route.


I'm not sure what happens if the Tunze doesn't get a 0-10V control signal. If 0 volts = "off," then a potential failure mechanism exists where the Apex 0-10 Vdc control signal output drops out but because the mains power is still present, there's no indication that it's inoperable. In which case, you'd need to monitor that 0-10V signal. You'd have to define some threshold under which you consider "failure" -- maybe 0.1 Vdc, or 0.5 Vdc, the level doesn't really matter for the point of discussion.

You'd use hardware (would probably need a bit more than a relay) to make sure that the control signal > your threshold. If not, you'd use the relay to kill the mains power coming from the Apex power strip, which would kick the Tunze over to battery power. Or if that doesn't default the Tunze to local control, you could use the relay to apply a signal from another source, which could be something as simple as a 5v wall wart.

There's a few ways you could go about it, really.

 

[ZombieEngineer]

Definitely thinking a bit more about redundancy. We live on the Space Coast of Florida. Given the potential for long-term outages, we just had a whole home generator installed last week, which will go a long way towards mitigating that risk. (and if that's not sufficient, we've likely got larger problems and the tank will be a secondary concern).

Perhaps using a battery backup on the Tunze, with a N/O Apex relay, would work. If the Apex fails, the relay would open killing Tunze power and causeing it to transition to battery power.

Or a separate uController with flow sensor on the return acting like a heartbeat detector. If flow is lost, notify via email/text.

If you want all of your pumps to be tunze and controllable by the apex, the much simpler option is using the VDM module for one of your tunze and the head unit for the other. The VDM has fallback states, so in the event your head unit dies, the tunze connected to the VDM still works albeit at a constant speed. In the event your VDM dies, your tunze connected to the head unit still works. The one situation this does not protect against is a hard aquabus short that simultaneously kills every module. This is incredibly uncommon and I think I've only seen it on Neptune forums maybe 4 or 5 times in the last 10 years.

A third option is to incorporate something like a vortech or a sicce which holds the last sent state. If the apex dies and it was running 50% reefcrest, it will just continue running that state.