Are our sump turnover rates missing a factor?

[exnisstech]

I may be apt to argue many of the modern problems that we see are due to roller filters being so much more efficient than even filter socks were.

I would have to agree.
The first image is a return that has been running for over two years never cleaned with a reefmat. I actually used to turn it off at night sometimes and let it overflow because N and P would bottom out. There is no skimmer on the tank only the reefmat.

The second image is a return that has been running about 15 months never cleaned. I run mesh socks and they usually overflow for a day or two before changing. There is a skimmer that skims dry.

I wouldn't say the tank with the roller has problems that the other one doesn't but it does require special attention. N and P have always been low and I dose ammonium to keep them up.
The dirty tank just runs. NO3 20+ and PO4 0.3-0.9+. No nuisance algae no headaches just keep feeding the fish and sit back and enjoy.

 

[UncommonSense]

I don't want to get off topic - have you really heard this is a 'benchmark' that people follow? It reminds me of the statement that you can only have x inches of fish per gallon of water. I do not see how filtration through the sump would be affected except for huge extremes in flow - certainly not a difference of 3-5x? Additionally - using a larger return pump - means you can use (potentially) less powerhead - so power consumption is not an issue either. In other words I don't know that a return should somehow be limited to 5x.

What I refer to as benchmark sump turnover rates are those flow rates commonly quoted as being most effective for filtration, as seen around this site on a regular basis!

Regarding the disparities in recommended sump turnover rates vs. practical turnover rates; the extreme end of that spectrum is likely exclusive to AIO systems; wherein the limited filtration compartment space yields less than ideal performance. — it seems like AIO tanks, or systems with compact sumps would significantly benefit from a lower turnover rate! (When compared to systems with sumps ~33% the volume of the DT)

 

[BeanAnimal]

Ah yes… these so-called “swirl filters” are quite popular in larger aquaponic systems! There are even some off the shelf options, though many farmers make their own!

had a cyclonic dust collector for the woodshop, it caught most of the debris before the filter.

The idea here was not to try and create a vortex settling system. I just wanted to use the container as a settling area that was easy to drain instead of vacuuming.

 

[UncommonSense]

had a cyclonic dust collector for the woodshop, it caught most of the debris before the filter.

The idea here was not to try and create a vortex settling system. I just wanted to use the container as a settling area that was easy to drain instead of vacuuming.

A very similar principle! And, it can be applied at a much smaller scale!

I’d be happy to pick my old college horticulture professor’s brain on some of the finer points of his designs, if you’d like to dive into that idea deeper?

 

[Nor'easter Reefer]

3-5x in my sump? Ehh im overshooting that by a LOT. but I only have filter socks, a skimmer, heaters, and proves down there so im not sure id get any benefit from more dwell time

 

[WhatCouldGoWrong71]

I was thinking about this earlier today. I run two L2’s, currently both set at 53%. I run a 96x36 peninsula. I relocated my returns from my overflow side to my display short side. That was an instant game changer. Now that I got my return flow fixed in my display, I think I am running too much flow through my sump. I feel I am going through too much fleece through both rollers. I need to balance my relocation though. My flow goes up to the ceiling then down so there is some head to deal with. But, there is no way I am going to figure out my turn rate. Ideally I’d like to get my display through my sump every 2-3 hours. But I think I am going to see about running my pumps at 20% each with my current return plumbing situation, I think 20% shouldn’t be a problem. I feel like I don’t have great contact time with my skimmer.

Reading this thread I saw the check valve comments. I ran check valve, till I had to run for the shop vac. So I no longer run check valves connected to my return pumps. However, I have started running reverse check valves. I’m not going to say they can’t fail, anything can and will fail. However, due to my install location and the fact that algae growth has caused each one to have a slight drip, that slight drip is also a air leak which will cause the check valve to function properly. I’d have to shoot a video to show it. But, traditionally installed check valves will absolutely fail.

 

[UncommonSense]

I was thinking about this earlier today. I run two L2’s, currently both set at 53%. I run a 96x36 peninsula. I relocated my returns from my overflow side to my display short side. That was an instant game changer. Now that I got my return flow fixed in my display, I think I am running too much flow through my sump. I feel I am going through too much fleece through both rollers. I need to balance my relocation though. My flow goes up to the ceiling then down so there is some head to deal with. But, there is no way I am going to figure out my turn rate. Ideally I’d like to get my display through my sump every 2-3 hours. But I think I am going to see about running my pumps at 20% each with my current return plumbing situation, I think 20% shouldn’t be a problem. I feel like I don’t have great contact time with my skimmer.

Reading this thread I saw the check valve comments. I ran check valve, till I had to run for the shop vac. So I no longer run check valves connected to my return pumps. However, I have started running reverse check valves. I’m not going to say they can’t fail, anything can and will fail. However, due to my install location and the fact that algae growth has caused each one to have a slight drip, that slight drip is also a air leak which will cause the check valve to function properly. I’d have to shoot a video to show it. But, traditionally installed check valves will absolutely fail.

There are relatively inexpensive digital and analogue in-line flow meters these days; consider install one on your return plumbing to get some hard numbers?

Agreed on check valves of both descriptions! I’ve even gone so far as to install very long vertical “chimneys” of pipe teed straight up off return plumbing on larger commercial hydroponic system returns… this is the only 100% reliable siphon break I have used yet!

 

[WhatCouldGoWrong71]

There are relatively inexpensive digital and analogue in-line flow meters these days; consider install one on your return plumbing to get some hard numbers?

Agreed on check valves of both descriptions! I’ve even gone so far as to install very long vertical “chimneys” of pipe teed straight up off return plumbing on larger commercial hydroponic system returns… this is the only 100% reliable siphon break I have used yet!

I have one of those on another L2 the feeds my outdoor chiller. It worked long enough for to grab my phone and click on the calculator app. Then, like checkvalves, it stopped working… but it looks great the way I have it plumbed, lol.

 

[UncommonSense]

I have one of those on another L2 the feeds my outdoor chiller. It worked long enough for to grab my phone and click on the calculator app. Then, like checkvalves, it stopped working… but it looks great the way I have it plumbed, lol.

I think my best luck in aquariums at preventing a return plumbing siphon has been using either elevated spray bars, or laminar flow sheet bars… secondarily would be using a Y on loc-line in the tank and having a second (or third) nozzle on 3-4 line segments maximum, stuck above the water line!

 

[WhatCouldGoWrong71]

I think my best luck in aquariums at preventing a return plumbing siphon has been using either elevated spray bars, or laminar flow sheet bars… secondarily would be using a Y on loc-line in the tank and having a second (or third) nozzle on 3-4 line segments maximum, stuck above the water line!

Reverse checkvalves are holding their own for me. I have two in play right now.