Are there any clean up crew vendors we trust enough not to quarantine?

DHill6

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I ordered astrea snails to combat gha from Tidal Gardens. They were dry shipped, good looking snails, as always took a toothbrush to the shell first and inspected for hitchhikers. They did a fantastic job against gha, went to work immediately. Trochius I’ve ordered from Vivid on more than one occasion. Usually they were the red banded ones. This time around they sent black banded, not especially happy about that since the website shows red banded.
 

HB AL

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You must never buy new fish. Or if you do, how do you instantly immunize them the moment they enter your tank?
I add a fish maybe once or twice a year if I get rid of one that I trade in and find one I rather have. The fish in my tank definitely have been exposed to ich and possibly velvet in the last 4 years since it was visible. They all made it through it. Since then the 4 fish I added are all triggers and they are tough fish although they showed some spots the first couple weeks the went in but after that they cleared up so all my fish must be immune or they all would have been exposed and possibly died but they are all thriving. I haven't seen a spot in over 2 months now so it's safe to assume they have built up some immunity to disease.
 

neilp2006

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I add a fish maybe once or twice a year if I get rid of one that I trade in and find one I rather have. The fish in my tank definitely have been exposed to ich and possibly velvet in the last 4 years since it was visible. They all made it through it. Since then the 4 fish I added are all triggers and they are tough fish although they showed some spots the first couple weeks the went in but after that they cleared up so all my fish must be immune or they all would have been exposed and possibly died but they are all thriving. I haven't seen a spot in over 2 months now so it's safe to assume they have built up some immunity to disease.
I actually think adding fish, then literally watching them get ich and doing nothing about it, is wrong.

You wouldn’t let a dog walk around with a bunch of ticks, right? You’d do a prophylactic, or use a Seresta collar. Abd that’s with a parasite that rarely kills by itself. Why are fish held to a lower standard?
 

HB AL

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I actually think adding fish, then literally watching them get ich and doing nothing about it, is wrong.

You wouldn’t let a dog walk around with a bunch of ticks, right? You’d do a prophylactic, or use a Seresta collar. Abd that’s with a parasite that rarely kills by itself. Why are fish held to a lower standard?
You are entitled to your opinion, it's not like you can take them to the vet for treatment. Maybe you should go visit the disease forum and read all the articles of people killing there fish because of the toxic soup in the quarantine or a number of other issues. Makes no sense to me to treat a perfectly healthy specimen only to have it die while in a sub par quarantine tank. My system has worked for many years and I could care less what someone else's opinion is. Really just go on the disease forum and look at all the fish dying in people's quarantine tanks, its pretty sad. Those fish woulda had a better chance in my tank than in most of those quarantine tanks.
 

neilp2006

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You are entitled to your opinion, it's not like you can take them to the vet for treatment. Maybe you should go visit the disease forum and read all the articles of people killing there fish because of the toxic soup in the quarantine or a number of other issues. Makes no sense to me to treat a perfectly healthy specimen only to have it die while in a sub par quarantine tank. My system has worked for many years and I could care less what someone else's opinion is. Really just go on the disease forum and look at all the fish dying in people's quarantine tanks, its pretty sad. Those fish woulda had a better chance in my tank than in most of those quarantine tanks.
IM in the disease forum all the time. Running a sub-par QT is an issue in itself.

And its “couldn’t care less”.
 
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CMO

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I was under the impression that fish can harbor ich in their gills with no visual signs. @Humblefish if a fish has visual ich and then it clears up as described above can that fish assumed to be ich free if there are no visual or behavioral symptoms? Thanks
 

living_tribunal

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I just moved my fish into my new tank after running it 76 days with only live rock and corals. I didn't, but should have, introduced the clean up crew at the start of the fallow period.

So...are there any vendors, like Reef Cleaners, that we know well enough and trust that run fishless systems and keep the critters fallow long enough (or captive breed) to not have tomonts enter my tank through the CUC?

I really don't want at this point to throw a clean up crew in a quarantine tank for 3 months.
It's not economical for them to do so. Even if they do, I still qt my inverts and frags. I run my invert and frag qt for 45 days and feel comfortable about it. Small price to pay to not have to worry about my system.
 

Moxtrain

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I add a fish maybe once or twice a year if I get rid of one that I trade in and find one I rather have. The fish in my tank definitely have been exposed to ich and possibly velvet in the last 4 years since it was visible. They all made it through it. Since then the 4 fish I added are all triggers and they are tough fish although they showed some spots the first couple weeks the went in but after that they cleared up so all my fish must be immune or they all would have been exposed and possibly died but they are all thriving. I haven't seen a spot in over 2 months now so it's safe to assume they have built up some immunity to disease.
IMHO ich is one of those things that is not a primary infection kind of thing. If your fish catch it then their immune system is compromised in some fashion. I've never worried about introducing it to my tank because it will always be present at some concentration. If your fish have good clean water and a healthy diet you can rely on their immune system to deal with the issue. Similar to an issue we had with a mite infestation with our dog. All dogs have the mites, they get it from their mother at birth. We had our first child and the stress from that led our dog to the infestation. The dog is now acclimated to having a baby around and lo and behold his flare up went away. Ich hasn't killed every fish in the ocean for a reason. Just my .02$
 

living_tribunal

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IMHO ich is one of those things that is not a primary infection kind of thing. If your fish catch it then their immune system is compromised in some fashion. I've never worried about introducing it to my tank because it will always be present at some concentration. If your fish have good clean water and a healthy diet you can rely on their immune system to deal with the issue. Similar to an issue we had with a mite infestation with our dog. All dogs have the mites, they get it from their mother at birth. We had our first child and the stress from that led our dog to the infestation. The dog is now acclimated to having a baby around and lo and behold his flare up went away. Ich hasn't killed every fish in the ocean for a reason. Just my .02$
I really disagree on this. You can 100% reliably prevent ich from ever entering your tank. We know ich's life cycle very well including timeline by water temp, stages, and when it's vulnerable. If you take the necessary precautions, it's impossible for ich to enter your tank.
 

Squidward

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IMHO ich is one of those things that is not a primary infection kind of thing. If your fish catch it then their immune system is compromised in some fashion. I've never worried about introducing it to my tank because it will always be present at some concentration. If your fish have good clean water and a healthy diet you can rely on their immune system to deal with the issue. Similar to an issue we had with a mite infestation with our dog. All dogs have the mites, they get it from their mother at birth. We had our first child and the stress from that led our dog to the infestation. The dog is now acclimated to having a baby around and lo and behold his flare up went away. Ich hasn't killed every fish in the ocean for a reason. Just my .02$
Ich is not present in our tanks unless it's introduced. You can't compare the vast ocean to our little tanks when talking about ich. Ich don't have the chance to surround, multiply and continue to hunt your fish over and over in the ocean as it does in an enclosed aquarium where your fish can't escape it.
 

MnFish1

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IMHO ich is one of those things that is not a primary infection kind of thing. If your fish catch it then their immune system is compromised in some fashion. I've never worried about introducing it to my tank because it will always be present at some concentration. If your fish have good clean water and a healthy diet you can rely on their immune system to deal with the issue. Similar to an issue we had with a mite infestation with our dog. All dogs have the mites, they get it from their mother at birth. We had our first child and the stress from that led our dog to the infestation. The dog is now acclimated to having a baby around and lo and behold his flare up went away. Ich hasn't killed every fish in the ocean for a reason. Just my .02$
Yes it is. The first time a fish gets ich - its a primary infection. In the wild - the concentration of CI in the water is so low - that its likely that the infection will not kill the fish - and it will become immune . If the concentration of CI in a tank was as low as the ocean - it would likely not be a problem - but realize - in the wild- fish do get CI - and in all likelihood - a certain number die from it.

I really disagree on this. You can 100% reliably prevent ich from ever entering your tank. We know ich's life cycle very well including timeline by water temp, stages, and when it's vulnerable. If you take the necessary precautions, it's impossible for ich to enter your tank.
You can - but judging by the surveys here - most people 'don't take the time'

Ich is not present in our tanks unless it's introduced. You can't compare the vast ocean to our little tanks when talking about ich. Ich don't have the chance to surround, multiply and continue to hunt your fish over and over in the ocean as it does in an enclosed aquarium where your fish can't escape it.
If you look at the research - like the recent study surveying the incidence of CI in wild fish in vietnam- its very interesting - at certain seasons - > 70 percent of some fish are actively infected -and its shown that they do die from it. Not disagreeing with you - but - fish even in the 'open ocean' fish get infected - but - they probably are better able to resist reinfection.
 

living_tribunal

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Yes it is. The first time a fish gets ich - its a primary infection. In the wild - the concentration of CI in the water is so low - that its likely that the infection will not kill the fish - and it will become immune . If the concentration of CI in a tank was as low as the ocean - it would likely not be a problem - but realize - in the wild- fish do get CI - and in all likelihood - a certain number die from it.



You can - but judging by the surveys here - most people 'don't take the time'



If you look at the research - like the recent study surveying the incidence of CI in wild fish in vietnam- its very interesting - at certain seasons - > 70 percent of some fish are actively infected -and its shown that they do die from it. Not disagreeing with you - but - fish even in the 'open ocean' fish get infected - but - they probably are better able to resist reinfection.
It’s also how vast the ocean is. There is so much volume that only a small % of theronts will find hosts if any. This is why hasn’t wiped out the worlds fish yet.
 

Doctorgori

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I never quarantined for years until I got sloppy.....ich wiped me out....
would I dump and pray if it were a 1yr old 50 g with clowns and fire fish ... yeah probably...
Would I quarantine 1st if it were a 200 reef with mated pairs of fish 5-10 yrs old ... yeah

.... I’ve purchased from reefcleaners probably 5-6 times .... he’s refunded me without question ,,,,other times product was fair and generous....recommend
 

Mortie31

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Lol here we go again yet another thread on quarantine or not to quarantine, with the same arguments from both sides... neither of which can prove there correct... as over 50% or reefers of all polls held on here don’t quarantine and if CI was so prevalent and deadly anyone who doesn’t quarantine would not have a fish living beyond a few days... yes there are wipeouts, individual deaths in tanks and deaths in quarantine as well, but not in anywhere near the numbers all of the quarantine anything wet followers say happens..as well as the ongoing debate on toxicity effects long term of chemoquarantine, let alone the threat of Copper resistance that is potentially emerging... .. so what is really going on?? We must be missing so many pieces of information, and hence why these threads are so polarised and driven by pure emotion rather than proof...
 

Humblefish

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A clean up crew can be quarantined in a 5 gallon bucket with a heater, a powerheads, and some live rock. Why chance it?
The challenge is keeping them fed. Lots of nori + algae wafers, and seafood for the carnivores. You'll spike the ammonia in just a bucket with all the food you'll need to feed. IMO; a small frag tank is a much better option.

Why are fish held to a lower standard?
Because they haven't yet crossed the threshold from being just a commodity. If dogs were treated the way a lot of fish are, more people would be in prison.

I was under the impression that fish can harbor ich in their gills with no visual signs. @Humblefish if a fish has visual ich and then it clears up as described above can that fish assumed to be ich free if there are no visual or behavioral symptoms? Thanks
Ich is a relatively mild parasite, and the trophonts can come & go inside the gills unseen. The gills are more vulnerable because the mucous coat there is reduced in composition. The one exception to this rule are Acanthurus Tangs (especially Achilles & Powder Blues) because their mucous coat is thin all over.
 

living_tribunal

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Lol here we go again yet another thread on quarantine or not to quarantine, with the same arguments from both sides... neither of which can prove there correct... as over 50% or reefers of all polls held on here don’t quarantine and if CI was so prevalent and deadly anyone who doesn’t quarantine would not have a fish living beyond a few days... yes there are wipeouts, individual deaths in tanks and deaths in quarantine as well, but not in anywhere near the numbers all of the quarantine anything wet followers say happens..as well as the ongoing debate on toxicity effects long term of chemoquarantine, let alone the threat of Copper resistance that is potentially emerging... .. so what is really going on?? We must be missing so many pieces of information, and hence why these threads are so polarised and driven by pure emotion rather than proof...
But pro qt has proved our method to be very effective, both the science and reports back this up.... We know how ich works, it’s cycle time, and how it dies. We use this science, backed by countless studies, to produce very consistent results.

Just because most reefers don’t qt, and only 10% get ich, doesn’t take away from the efficacy or results of qt. I’d rather not risk killing all of my livestock just because I’m impatient and the chances are low.

To say we haven’t proven this is akin to flat earthers saying we haven’t proved that earth is a globe.
 
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truetricia

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When people make statements like "ich will always be present in our reef tanks" reminds me of old mindsets where people thought bacteria naturally occurred and spontaneous growth in closed environments was a kind of magic rather than contamination.

Nothing magically appears in reality; it's all introduced through contamination.

Regardless of my personal stand on QT, if you're going to make arguments on not QT'ing, they should still be made with something other than a spontaneous generation argument from the 1800's. It didn't exist back then, and it doesn't now either.
 

Mortie31

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But pro qt has proved our method to be very effective, both the science and reports back this up.... We know how ich works, it’s cycle time, and how it dies. We use this science, backed by countless studies, to produce very consistent results.

Just because most reefers don’t qt, and only 10% get ich, doesn’t take away from the efficacy or results of qt. I’d rather not risk killing all of my livestock just because I’m impatient and the chances are low.

To say we haven’t proven this is akin to flat earthers saying we haven’t proved that earth is a globe.
Sorry you are quite correct, what you have proved is that when done correctly chemoquarantine will kill CI, what you haven’t proved is any long term differences in survival rates over not quarantining, or that fully quarantined systems have better outcomes than CI managed tanks
 

Mortie31

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I actually think adding fish, then literally watching them get ich and doing nothing about it, is wrong.

You wouldn’t let a dog walk around with a bunch of ticks, right? You’d do a prophylactic, or use a Seresta collar. Abd that’s with a parasite that rarely kills by itself. Why are fish held to a lower standard?
And here lies the crux of most arguments against chemoquarantine vs treating diagnosed illness/ parasite. Not one person is against medicating an Ill fish, we’re opposed to the mass use of drugs/chemicals on undiagnosed fish, without any evidence that these medications and CI free systems are healthier long term vs CI managed systems and probably more importantly don’t have long term health Implications/ reduced immunity on the fish. @Humblefish do you have any new data or evidence to the contrary to my final 2 points? As virtually every recent discussion on this forum has these 2 main sticking points with both sides very emotively voicing there opinions..
 
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