Are there any clean up crew vendors we trust enough not to quarantine?

[User]

And here lies the crux of most arguments against chemoquarantine vs treating diagnosed illness/ parasite. Not one person is against medicating an Ill fish, we’re opposed to the mass use of drugs/chemicals on undiagnosed fish, without any evidence that these medications and CI free systems are healthier long term vs CI managed systems and probably more importantly don’t have long term health Implications/ reduced immunity on the fish. @Humblefish do you have any new data or evidence to the contrary to my final 2 points? As virtually every recent discussion on this forum has these 2 main sticking points with both sides very emotively voicing there opinions..

Except HB AL states that he sees ich spots and let’s it run its course.

So no, your statement that “not one person isn’t gainer treating a sick fish” is wrong. And that’s not isolated. In my experience in my local club- one of the biggest metro clubs in the us- around 20% won’t pull a diseased fish from their tank to treat because “disease is natural and it’ll boost immunity”.

You know what else is natural? Polio, smallpox, influenza, mumps, chicken pox, canine distemper, rabies. I can go on, but there’s no denying that A LOT of people consider fish to be third class pets and don’t deem them worthy of treatment.

The fact that us hobbyists on the other end of the spectrum have to defend the practice of aiming for disease free living conditions for our livestock speaks volumes by itself.

 

[Squidward]

Lol here we go again yet another thread on quarantine or not to quarantine, with the same arguments from both sides... neither of which can prove there correct... as over 50% or reefers of all polls held on here don’t quarantine and if CI was so prevalent and deadly anyone who doesn’t quarantine would not have a fish living beyond a few days... yes there are wipeouts, individual deaths in tanks and deaths in quarantine as well, but not in anywhere near the numbers all of the quarantine anything wet followers say happens..as well as the ongoing debate on toxicity effects long term of chemoquarantine, let alone the threat of Copper resistance that is potentially emerging... .. so what is really going on?? We must be missing so many pieces of information, and hence why these threads are so polarised and driven by pure emotion rather than proof...

So why risk a wipeout? I've gone through it. I don't ever want to experience it again. And there's TTM where no copper is used. That's how I QT. Studies have all been done. You're saying all those marine biologists and experts like Humblefish are wrong? It's just the majority don't research or care to QT so you tend to hear more "I don't QT and have been fine etc." compared to the hobbyists that QT.

 

[Brew12]

You know what else is natural? Polio, smallpox, influenza, mumps, chicken pox, canine distemper, rabies. I can go on, but there’s no denying that A LOT of people consider fish to be third class pets and don’t deem them worthy of treatment.

I could make an argument that people who treat prophylactically treat their fish as third class pets. If my dog is showing signs of disease I take her to the vet. I would agree that not treating an obviously sick fish is wrong but that doesn't make bombing a healthy looking fish with medications right. If you get a healthy looking new dog or cat do you give it aggressive medicated baths and multiple rounds of antibiotics and dewormers that your ordered from Amazon with no consideration to the pets size before you let it free in your yard? I think plenty of reasonable people would take issue with that.

I'm all for encouraging people to use fish medications under the guidance of a veterinarian or marine biologist.

I also don't have an issue with a person who sees signs of ich on a fish and doesn't pull for treatment immediately. I don't take my dog to the vet if I see she has runny poo or vomits. Typically I will watch her closely for a day or two to see if she gets better on her own. I don't feel like I'm treating her like a third class pet when I do that.

You're saying all those marine biologists and experts like Humblefish are wrong? It's just the majority don't research or care to QT so you tend to hear more "I don't QT and have been fine etc." compared to the hobbyists that QT.

I won't say that the marine biologists are wrong but of the 5 or 6 I talked to at MACNA, the several that I know of on here, and the 2 who run our local museums aquarium, only 1 of them recommends prophylactic treatment. Maybe you have met marine biologists who feel differently but this has been my experience.
The only lecturer on fish and coral disease at MACNA this year did not recommend prophylactic treatment, either, FYI.

 

[EMeyer]

My goodness, now people are really quarantining snails? Sincerely didn't know that was a thing.

I think this may have gone a little too far.

 

[KLaRue]

I'm just a crazy man obsessed with fish diseases.

Ooh! A fish witch doctor!

 

[Mortie31]

The fact that us hobbyists on the other end of the spectrum have to defend the practice of aiming for disease free living conditions for our livestock speaks volumes by itself.

I’m not asking to you to defend anything, if you believe your fish are better served being given drugs and chemicals to prevent a disease they may not even have or may not catch then that’s entirely up to you.

 

[tstar]

Sooooooo....

I gather that LiveAquaria and Algae Barn are two mentioned that are somewhat trustworthy??? I'm new to this and in the market for a small CUC...

Tim

 

[Mortie31]

So why risk a wipeout? I've gone through it. I don't ever want to experience it again. And there's TTM where no copper is used. That's how I QT. Studies have all been done. You're saying all those marine biologists and experts like Humblefish are wrong? It's just the majority don't research or care to QT so you tend to hear more "I don't QT and have been fine etc." compared to the hobbyists that QT.

I talk about chemoquarantine and didn’t even mention TTM!! and it is very important to recognise the diference... I have no problem with observation or TTM... I have issues with indiscriminate chemoquarantine on undiagnosed healthy fish. Are you sure about the research? I cannot find any that looked at the long term health implications, which is why I asked in my post if humblefish if he knew of any. We all know Copper kills CI and velvet, that’s not disputable, what is in my opinion up for debate Is the long term impact on the health of undiagnosed fish and why I asked an expert for his opinion. What’s happening continually on these threads at the moment is followers of humble fish and hotrocks et al, are voicing there opinions second hand and without all of the knowledge and experience that these few people have, and talk for them and misquote on so many occasions...

 

[living_tribunal]

I talk about chemoquarantine and didn’t even mention TTM!! and it is very important to recognise the diference... I have no problem with observation or TTM... I have issues with indiscriminate chemoquarantine on undiagnosed healthy fish. Are you sure about the research? I cannot find any that looked at the long term health implications, which is why I asked in my post if humblefish if he knew of any. We all know Copper kills CI and velvet, that’s not disputable, what is in my opinion up for debate Is the long term impact on the health of undiagnosed fish and why I asked an expert for his opinion. What’s happening continually on these threads at the moment is followers of humble fish and hotrocks et al, are voicing there opinions second hand and without all of the knowledge and experience that these few people have, and talk for them and misquote on so many occasions...

Maybe I'm unaware but what is "chemoquarantine"? Is this some kind of harmful treatment or something?

 

[MnFish1]

Just because most reefers don’t qt, and only 10% get ich, doesn’t take away from the efficacy or results of qt. I’d rather not risk killing all of my livestock just because I’m impatient and the chances are low.

To say we haven’t proven this is akin to flat earthers saying we haven’t proved that earth is a globe.

Actually - it might take away from the results of QT - IF more than 10 percent of fish that are quarantined have negative outcomes (not every fish that gets ich 'dies'. Of course - we're not talking about velvet.

Now back to the OP - I emailed Reefcleaners - where I get my CUC -the answer - "The risk is slight but QTing it for 72 days will always be safer then not. The snails are moist shipped, they can’t really be dried too much more than that. "

 

[Brew12]

Sooooooo....

I gather that LiveAquaria and Algae Barn are two mentioned that are somewhat trustworthy??? I'm new to this and in the market for a small CUC...

Tim

There is no supplier of CuC that I am aware of that would not require QT to ensure parasites do not come in with them. You may be able to find some individual species, such as peppermint shrimp, that can be considered "clean" but most CuC members are still harvested wild and shipped in under 76 days.

 

[Mortie31]

Maybe I'm unaware but what is "chemoquarantine"? Is this some kind of harmful treatment or something?

It’s quarantining using drugs or chemicals

 

[living_tribunal]

It’s quarantining using drugs or chemicals

That's a bit of a ridiculous title for preventative treatment.

I'm speaking anecdotally here but for those that maintain consistent copper levels and keep fish qt to only 1-1.5 months, I haven't seen any negative long-term health effects from people on here. There are deaths where individuals didn't keep copper levels between 1-1.5 or other external effects contributing to a fishs death but generally 1-1.5ppm copper levels are therapeutic and safe for the fish with very minimal deaths to be expected.

 

[living_tribunal]

Actually - it might take away from the results of QT - IF more than 10 percent of fish that are quarantined have negative outcomes (not every fish that gets ich 'dies'. Of course - we're not talking about velvet.

Now back to the OP - I emailed Reefcleaners - where I get my CUC -the answer - "The risk is slight but QTing it for 72 days will always be safer then not. The snails are moist shipped, they can’t really be dried too much more than that. "

The issue is how the deaths occurred here. Many people experience deaths when bringing fish home without a treatment qt. Fish die from being moved at very high rates, far more than those caused by accurate preventative treatment. If we had the data, I'm sure it would show that deaths caused by stress from being shipped is higher than fish in properly maintained therapeutic copper levels.

 

[Mortie31]

That's a bit of a ridiculous title for preventative treatment

Why? Chemo- chemical, quarantine- self explanatory..
chemo-
a combining form with the meanings “chemical,” “chemically induced,” “chemistry,” used in the formation of compound words:

And distinguishes from observation and TTM... quarantine methods

 

[User]

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[Brew12]

That's a bit of a ridiculous title for preventative treatment.

I don't know, I kinda like it. Much easier to say than Prophylactic Chemical Quarantine.

There are deaths where individuals didn't keep copper levels between 1-1.5 or other external effects contributing to a fishs death but generally 1-1.5ppm copper levels are therapeutic and safe for the fish with very minimal deaths to be expected.

FYI, I am not aware of any copper products with a therapuetic range between 1ppm and 1.5ppm.

 

[Mortie31]

That's a bit of a ridiculous title for preventative treatment

It’s not exactly an innocent preventative treatment, that’s how all of you who advocate using a sub lethal dose of a very toxic chemical to “treat” potentially healthy fish like to justify it...

 

[Brew12]

The same reason chemotherapy for cancer elicits an immediate ‘oh ****’ response. Because people see the word chemo and think it means toxic

Umm... aren't we talking about toxins? Chemotherapy is the use of toxins to kill cancer cells while hoping to minimize damage to the patients healthy cells. Copper and CP are toxins that we hope will kill parasites before it does too much damage to the fish.

 

[Mortie31]

The same reason chemotherapy for cancer elicits an immediate ‘oh ****’ response. Because people see the word chemo and think it means toxic

Isn’t copper very toxic and that’s why you have to use sub lethal doses??