Are water changes over rated?

[CHSUB]

Know next to nothing on terrestrial plants but have never smelled sulfur using them as filtration in both fresh and salt (macroalgae). Wife and mother in law keep plants. I stay away from them. The plants. Not wife and mother :rolling-on-the-floor-laughing:

I know you said they grow faster on dirt but is the Betta there because it's secondary to goal such as source of nitrogen? Just curious.

I’m guessing it’s more like a marsh or my home on the Peace River. The farther up the river you go it becomes almost all freshwater and will get smelly because of less tidal flow. Mangroves are trees and in freshwater grow surprisingly quickly and will outgrow pots. With such a large pot, deep dirt, and stagnant water, I expected some sulfur smell, but it’s minimal. The betta is more for fun and he is doing well. The soil should provide all the nutrient needs of the mangroves. Those are mangroves in my backyard on the Peace River.

 

[Lasse]

As I know and understand the allelopathy mechanism of aquatic organism - it is most substances that act as nettle venom - it needs a point of contact. Its not freely released out in the water column - correct me if I´m wrong. A point of contact can be the closest attaching area around an organism in order to ward off too close settlement of foreign organisms but a free release out in the open water would be an evolutionary dead end street and as I see it - a violation of nature's way of conserving energy. However - during stress - it could be otherwise - compare the accidents with palytoxin.

The smell you talk about is the result when both oxygen and nitrate is gone from the poor water in the sediment - next step is to use sulfate or elemental sulfur as electron acceptor and produce Hydrogen sulfide as a waste.

Sincerely Lasse

 

[CHSUB]

The smell you talk about is the result when both oxygen and nitrate is gone from the poor water in the sediment - next step is to use sulfate or elemental sulfur as electron acceptor and produce Hydrogen sulfide as a waste.

Yes, probably this. We can this “marsh smell”…

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

As I know and understand the allelopathy mechanism of aquatic organism - it is most substances that act as nettle venom - it needs a point of contact. Its not freely released out in the water column - correct me if I´m wrong. A point of contact can be the closest attaching area around an organism in order to ward off too close settlement of foreign organisms but a free release out in the open water would be an evolutionary dead end street and as I see it - a violation of nature's way of conserving energy. However - during stress - it could be otherwise - compare the accidents with palytoxin.

The smell you talk about is the result when both oxygen and nitrate is gone from the poor water in the sediment - next step is to use sulfate or elemental sulfur as electron acceptor and produce Hydrogen sulfide as a waste.

Sincerely Lasse

Well, some do not fit your description. I don’t think leather corals need to sting neighbors to deter them:

Ecologically, sarcophytoxide, usually found in sarocophyton species, is an allelopathic chemical used in competition for space with scleractinian corals

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[SomeHappyFish]

IMO, water changes are like feeding you corals Nectar from the Gods...just trust me on this.

Or don't trust me...many ways to do this hobby...but if you want 1-inch frags to become colonies in 12 months, change your water...and if growth is looking slow, change more water. You'll thank me later. Happy Reefing!

How long in between pictures?

If Alk,cal,mg and nitrate & phodphase are perfect and let's say stable.

Should one still do waterchange (10%) weekly?

I do water change on my 45G Lagoon when I need to fix parameters or lower nitrate.

Currently my tank has low phos (0.02) and good nitrate (4ppm)

How do you tell when it's needed ?

 

[Lasse]

Ecologically, sarcophytoxide, usually found in sarocophyton species, is an allelopathic chemical used in competition for space with scleractinian corals

My bold. How will this work in a real reef ? That they contain these chemicals is one thing that I do not doubt at all. But - You will never convince me that they release these toxins directly out in the water (during normal circumstances) where it will be directly diluted and harmless by the water movement. These corals are photosynthetic and you found them in directly contact with the light and hence the movement of the waves. If they deliver toxic concentration of whatever directly into the water column during normal circumstances in order to compete in a three-dimensional volume of water around the coral - it would be an evolutionary dead end street IMO. That they can - under stress related circumstances release toxin into the water - I do not doubt at all - but in these cases daily small WC is not the remedy - its a large WC that´s have to be done.

I still believe that some type of contact is necessary either on the "skin" or very close to the attaching point of the coral to the ground.

I have examples in my aquarium where the very competitive green hairy mushroom decline in favour for other photosynthetic organisms when I change the water movement at that spot from low to high

Is there any evidences that these compound found in leather corals accumulate in the water column of an aquarium water that I´m not aware of - please let me know.

I admit that use of the words "act as nettle venom" is unclear - what I meant was "act like a nettle venom" - my bad. I have change my text in the original post. I did not meant that all allelopathic chemical of corals are nettle venoms - only that the release is triggered by contact or very close encounter of an alien species like the release of nettle venoms. Its difficult when you need to weight your words on a gold scale and do it in an foreign language ;)

About these chemicals - do we know the breakdown rate of them in an aquarium?

Sincerely Lasse

 

[Z Burn's Reefing]

How long in between pictures?

If Alk,cal,mg and nitrate & phodphase are perfect and let's say stable.

Should one still do waterchange (10%) weekly?

I do water change on my 45G Lagoon when I need to fix parameters or lower nitrate.

Currently my tank has low phos (0.02) and good nitrate (4ppm)

How do you tell when it's needed ?

12 months between pics. I change water often, regardless of what my parameters may be. I would suggest choosing a schedule that you are comfortable with and can maintain long-term. If at any moment, more than a few corals in my system look 'off' (i.e., poor polyp extension, lack of base encrusting, no new tip growth, etc) for 3+ consecutive days, I will do a series of small water changes to get things back in order or buy myself some time while I investigate what may be going on.

Frequent water changes have saved me on multiple occasions from contaminant build-up (most recently bad magnets), or has slowed the build-up enough where I could make the observation/investigation that things were going south before the system experienced significant coral/fish loss.

One can keep a reef tank alive by changing water or by not changing water. I am in the frequent water change camp, so long as it is done correctly and does not impact stability. It appears some are not in the water change camp, and that is okay too. If I were to join that camp, I'd probably do more ICPs. The information in this thread and the pics of the no-water change systems haven't persuaded me to change camps.

 

[FrugalReeferJon]

Corals in nature get a 100% water change like every 5 seconds so I would say water changes are not over rated.

 

[Lasse]

Corals in nature get a 100% water change like every 5 seconds so I would say water changes are not over rated.

There is a lot of differences between a natural water body and new artificial salt water so that´s not an valid argument - IMO.

Sincerely Lasse

 

[GARRIGA]

Corals in nature get a 100% water change like every 5 seconds so I would say water changes are not over rated.

Not technically true because on a reef that coral has pollutants being pulled off it by current which is now flowing onto its neighbor and thereby by default having pollutants from its upstream neighbor flow onto it.

Peeing down stream will always contain pee until one stops peeing. Now your only solution for that pee down stream is dilution although you’re always getting some pee on you. Only way to stop this peeing contest is have something that physically removes it, consumes it or sequesters it.

Nature performs zero water changes.

Solutions isn’t necessarily dilution. Might be filtration.

 

[MnFish1]

They are not over-

I've had a 30 gallon reef tank setup with all soft corals and 5 fish for almost 2 years. I think the best advice I got over this time was to stop doing routine water changes. The first year of my tanks life I was on a weekly water change schedule and was constantly battling fluctuations with readings and corals being happy and then unhappy. Then I stopped doing water changes, and my tank has flourished over the past year! Haven't done one in months and i just took readings. Nitrates are at 0 and the corals and fish couldn't be happier! So are water changes over rated? What do you think?

They are not overrated - and if done correctly there should not be great fluctuations in any parameters that matter to fish and coral. BUT, water changes are not the only way to run an aquarium and it sounds like your way is working for you. One issue is that there are many things in our tanks that 'build up' over time that we cant (or don't measure). Curious what your other filtering methods are?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

My bold. How will this work in a real reef ? That they contain these chemicals is one thing that I do not doubt at all. But - You will never convince me that they release these toxins directly out in the water (during normal circumstances) where it will be directly diluted and harmless by the water movement.

I agree that direct transfer, such as simple rubbing off of allopathic chemicals is common, remote killing also is known:

One soft coral,L. pauciflorum, also caused extensive and significant mortality inPorites andrewsi in a non-contact situation.

(PDF) Competitive strategies of soft corals (Coelenterata: Octocorallia): Allelopathic effects on selected scleractinian corals

PDF | A striking retardation of grwoth was observed in the scleractinian coralPavona cactus (Coelenterata: Scleractinia) growing in the vicinity of the... | Find, read and cite all the research you need on ResearchGate

www.researchgate.net

These effects include retardation of growth and tissue necrosis or mortality of scleractinians via direct tissue-to-tissue contact. Mortality may also occur as a result of the passage of allelochemicals (Whittaker and Feeny, 1971) through the water column in the absence of contact Coll et al., 1982, Schulte et al., 1991. In this way, soft corals are able to maintain and expand their living space (Sammarco et al., 1983).

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0022098103005355

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

Is there any evidences that these compound found in leather corals accumulate in the water column of an aquarium water that I´m not aware of - please let me know.

The tools to detect allopathic compounds are well beyond hobbyists, and I’m not aware of anyone looking for them, whether they found them or not.

That said, I am aware of one hobbyist analytical service company that is looking into organic compound determination in reef tanks, so I am hopeful that a whole new frontier of reef chemistry may open up in the future.

 

[SunnyX]

I strongly believe that skipping water changes shouldn't even be up for debate. The numerous benefits and the proven success reported by countless experienced reefers who consistently perform water changes make it hard to understand why this topic is still controversial.

It would be fascinating to analyze how many "Tank of the Month" winners regularly conduct water changes compared to those who don’t. From my observations, the vast majority do. Ultimately, it’s your reef, and you’re free to manage it however you see fit. However, I’ve noticed an overwhelmingly high number of people seeking my assistance who don’t perform water changes. In many cases, I’ve been able to help turn their systems around simply by introducing a proper water change and maintenance schedule.

Not everyone aims to create a world-class reef aquarium—some are content with maintaining a functional system. That’s perfectly fine. But if you want to simplify your reefing journey and give yourself the best chance for long-term success, regular water changes are a fundamental step you shouldn’t overlook.

This hobby is simple- we overcomplicate it.

-Sonny

 

[Paul B]

It would be fascinating to analyze how many "Tank of the Month" winners regularly conduct water changes compared to those who don’t.

I was tank of the month and I just won Mariner of the Month here. I do about 4 or 5 partial water changes a year. Sometimes a little more, sometimes less as I have no schedule.

I do not keep SPS corals any longer but I used to and always had the same schedule. I also believe too many water changes are almost as detrimental as to few water changes. All new water is not good at all which is why new tanks with all new water look lousy and the reason we don't change 100% of our water.

 

[GARRIGA]

Had seen this few months back. My focus on how to filter this and other toxins out

 

[Mechano]

I've had a 30 gallon reef tank setup with all soft corals and 5 fish for almost 2 years. I think the best advice I got over this time was to stop doing routine water changes. The first year of my tanks life I was on a weekly water change schedule and was constantly battling fluctuations with readings and corals being happy and then unhappy. Then I stopped doing water changes, and my tank has flourished over the past year! Haven't done one in months and i just took readings. Nitrates are at 0 and the corals and fish couldn't be happier! So are water changes over rated? What do you think?

Here’s a really gross analogy.

“You work all day. Get sweaty and dirty and smell. Then you proceed to only ring-out your sweaty T-shirt or underwear that u wore all day. Then in the morning you reuse the T-shirt and underwear like they are clean” ( it’s gross lol)

So my opinion is, thing can accumulate in your reef and need a freshening up I think. Also u deplete elements in your system and re-add with a water change (and dosing too yes)

Just my thoughts been doing them for over 15 years now on all my reef tanks, I have toyed with no water changes in one system, and it also just gets annoying having to ICP test all the time and add all the different elements blah blah. So now I just dose tropic Marin all-for-reef or equivalent, do my water changes , and dose kalk waster—easy peasy and things always look great

 

[Gregg @ ADP]

I’ll say this as a person who has probably changed millions of gallons of aquarium water in his lifetime:

While I can easily make a scientific argument for how matter cycling can be managed in such a way that no water changes are ever necessary, and said systems can be fine if all matter required by inhabitants is managed and replaced as needed, I cannot think of a single time a reef aquarium has looked worse the day after a water change.

It’s anecdotal and not something quantifiable or measurable, but I think there is a positive response to that process.

It might not even just be about the water change itself. It might be that we also suspend a lot of detritus and everything living in the detritus as well, and the corals gorge.

But I’ll go back to what I said before…if done properly, I can’t think of a time a reef tank looked worse after a water change.

 

[SunnyX]

I was tank of the month and I just won Mariner of the Month here. I do about 4 or 5 partial water changes a year. Sometimes a little more, sometimes less as I have no schedule.

I do not keep SPS corals any longer but I used to and always had the same schedule. I also believe too many water changes are almost as detrimental as to few water changes. All new water is not good at all which is why new tanks with all new water look lousy and the reason we don't change 100% of our water.

As seasoned reefers with a proven track record of success, we’re definitely exceptions to the rule. I’m confident that if we wanted to, we could find a way to maintain our reefs through every method available. However, doing so would inevitably require more effort and, in my opinion, wouldn’t yield the same exceptional results.

New hobbyists join the reefing community daily, but many end up diverging from the tried-and-true methods that form the foundation of successful reefing due to the overwhelming number of opinions and advice available.

My systems are SPS-dominated, which means they demand higher water quality than soft coral or LPS-dominated tanks. Over time, I’ve noticed my systems consistently thrive when I stick to regular water changes.

That doesn’t mean they need to be done weekly, though. I change 25% of my water every six weeks, which amounts to just 8–9 water changes a year. Even so, this simple routine works wonders for maintaining the stability and health of my reefs.

It’s not just about the water changes. These scheduled water changes create an excellent opportunity to tackle other essential maintenance tasks, like deep-cleaning powerheads, overflows, skimmers, the sump, and even the sandbed—things that might otherwise get overlooked.

Of course, there’s no “wrong” way to approach reefing, but there’s always a better and simpler way. A method that doesn’t rely on constant water testing or frequent chemical adjustments to fix imbalances can make the hobby more enjoyable and less stressful. Regular water changes and routine maintenance provide a straightforward path to long-term stability and success.

My reefing philosophy is incredibly simple, yet it consistently delivers outstanding results. By focusing on tried-and-true methods, maintaining a regular maintenance schedule, and avoiding unnecessary complications, I’ve found a straightforward approach that keeps my systems thriving.

-Sonny

 

[SomeHappyFish]

12 months between pics. I change water often, regardless of what my parameters may be. I would suggest choosing a schedule that you are comfortable with and can maintain long-term. If at any moment, more than a few corals in my system look 'off' (i.e., poor polyp extension, lack of base encrusting, no new tip growth, etc) for 3+ consecutive days, I will do a series of small water changes to get things back in order or buy myself some time while I investigate what may be going on.

Frequent water changes have saved me on multiple occasions from contaminant build-up (most recently bad magnets), or has slowed the build-up enough where I could make the observation/investigation that things were going south before the system experienced significant coral/fish loss.

One can keep a reef tank alive by changing water or by not changing water. I am in the frequent water change camp, so long as it is done correctly and does not impact stability. It appears some are not in the water change camp, and that is okay too. If I were to join that camp, I'd probably do more ICPs. The information in this thread and the pics of the no-water change systems haven't persuaded me to change camps.

Thanks for taking the time to get back to me! The growth that has occurred in 12 months is quite astounding. I'll follow the advise for my 45G lagoon mixed reef and continue doing water changes weekly or biweekly, rather than skipping because I believe nutrients are where they should be.

As a novice enthusiast with adequate money, space, and time for a second tank, I'm pleased to be able to test the two approaches here. Yesterday, I changed the Alk, Cal, and Mg readings in my 50G tank, as well as my dosing pump for the Alk consumption rate, and I can see a difference in several corals this morning; they appear puffier. As a result, while I agree that weekly water changes would have kept these corals puffier and happier for longer, it is my "fault" for failing to calibrate the dosing pump or dosing calcium at the proper consumption rate. I test on a monthly basis and change the dose rate accordingly; I could go to biweekly.

I would be pleased to perform an ICP test on the missing elements after starting the system with new saltwater from Aqua Forest Reef Salt six months ago and not changing the water once. I have the ICP test from my bucket of Aquaforest Reef Salt, and I could compare the results to the ICP results; for the best results, I should have done an ICP test on day one, but I did not.

Honestly, I find positives in both techniques. Currently, I consider both very basic and easy. I however will say that we lack proof of visible tank with the no water change and transparency, we only have a handful of reefers visibly doing it. I don't mind taking the heat, has it's been an experiment.