ASAP Quarantine procedures? (Mr. Achilles)

[R6REEFER]

As most of you have read my Achilles posts, this is branching from the medication post for a worst case scenario.

I need to have a set in stone, full proof game plan if I ever need to set up a quarentine. I have a choice to use a 46g rimless, 20g frag, or the good ol' 55. I think 55 would be best for Mr. Achilles tang. So everythings at the house, 55g tank, MH lighting, salt for days, I make my own RO/DI, PVC, powerheads, etc. I find it unnecessary to set up this 55g as a full time quarantine as I will no longer be purchasing anymore fish. Not to mention it would be a waste of resources. This 55g will be turned into a seperate system in the future once my house is built.

So let's say worst case he comes down with a bit of Ich, crypt, or velvet. As soon as I see signs I'm calling in and setting up quarantine. My question is should I use water from the current display, half and half, or all fresh mixed? Common sense says all fresh but if the fish if going to be in there for a month I would think it's quite unrealistic to say I would be able to keep relevant parameters as the tank isn't cycled. I've heard several opinions, some do all display, some do all fresh. I was thinking my response would be as follows:

-As soon as fish has noticeable symptoms start throwing together 55g with all necessary equipment and filtration.

-Perform 30g waterchange on current display and use that water to fill quarantine. Top off quarantine with freshly mixed water.

-Catch fish in fish trap and toss him in. Treat with medication (most likely Cupramine as I've already got it on hand). Set up secondary ATO and do recommended water changes with fresh mix all while monitoring parameters daily.

My big tank has a problem with naturally low Ph which is rectified by my 2 part dosing. I'm thinking of setting up the quarantine by my back porch door so I can run an air line to powerhead as I've already demonstrated (on youtube) that will bring water to a nifty Ph of 8.2.

I may be leaving some obvious steps out but this is the general idea. What do you guys think? Any recommendations or tips/advice? Coral has always been my forte and I've been fortunate enough to never introduce any disease into my tank as I dip everything before it goes in. Another bit of important info, I keep my tank at 79 (+ or - 1 due to heating system) degrees. I hear warmer is better in terms of keeping the fishes metabolism and immune system in check. My last tank which had alot of fish I kept at 80 degrees and I had beautiful coloration and no problems. I dropped this system to 79 because of the &[HASHTAG]#177[/HASHTAG]; 1 thing. Any knowledge there?

Thanks in advance!!

Mr. Achilles himself :) For you negative individuals I last encountered.... he is doing fantastic in his new home so far. Eating like a champ, no longer skittish, and chubbing up nicely! ;)

 

[BoneXriffic]

Why a metal halide?

Ny thought would be a worst case scenario of velvet i would think you would want it dark. As it feeds on light as well as its host. Also the fish will need quarantined for more than a month if it is ick or velvet, 76 or something days in qt away from display. I maybe wrong here however

I have the worst luck with tangs so i may not be the best and it lol

 

[FarmerTy]

I ran mine through TTM 2x now with no issues. I'd say 90% chance it comes down with anything, it'll be ich so that will do the trick for it and have him ich free by the 12th day.

If it somehow has velvet, chloroquine phosphate is what I'd use.

The 1 degree temp difference is irrelevant. Low pH doesn't matter either for this situation as long as it's above 7.8. I agree on the MH being overkill. If you use CP, the UV from the MH light will reduce its effectiveness.

If you are going to use TTM, then use all new water. If you are using copper, ideally use new water but using tank water is fine as well. Just common sense would dictate not to use the water that is infected to treat the fish in.

You will need to establish a working biofilter prior if you are using copper and keep up on water changes to keep ammonia levels low. I'd suggest throwing a sponge in your sump now and letting it develop some bacteria so that you can transfer it to the QT.

If you are doing TTM, my usual procedure is to get dry rock (that way I know there aren't any ich tomonts in the rock ready to release the next batch to infest my fish), cycle it in a separate container with a pump, pour instant bacteria in a bottle in there...meanwhile, do the 12 days of the TTM. Once TTM has finished, put the cycled live rock in the QT tank and put the fish in there. Monitor for ammonia but I've never had any creep up with this method. I like this the best because I don't have to do water changes in the QT for the 76 days the DT has to be fallow to rid it of ich.

If you're going to be treating the achilles, you might as well be treating the whole tank population as well, otherwise, you'll have a clean fish with nowhere to go. You wouldn't put him back in with infected fish or in an infected tank. That's just going to make you do it all over again.

 

[dbrewsky]

So if I get the jist of what you are trying to achieve, you are attempting to take lots of steps to be proactive about the arrival of a new fish. You can only be proactive if you are all in in assuming that the fish will come in with a disease/parasite. What you are demonstrating with your plan is a reactionary step dealing with a sick fish that has already been exposed to disease/parasite and added to other fish which are now contaminated if not already.

If you are really following a pro active plan for a known sensitive fish , i would personally follow the following steps:

1- Plan for the addition of the achilles to the tank in the first place. This would mean proactively treating all fish as if they had ich from the get go and ensuring that there is no chance for the parasite to enter the display. Many people who have been successful in keeping an Achilles long term have done this step or they treated the existing fish in a separate QT and fallowed the display to ensure that ich is not in the system.

2- set up a qt and have it ready to go before you get the fish. If a qt is set up before it is needed, they are inherently more stable- mechanically,chemically,and biologically. You can have bacteria established and never see a trace of ammonia. Rushing to throw some saltwater and heaters into a sterile tank and placing a large tang is a recipe for toxic ammonia and more likely to stress and or kill the fish even if disease/parasites are non-existent

3 Treat the fish as if it has ich and take time in the qt. Pretty simple for fish that are ich magnets... they will frequently already be infected upon arrival. If you are prepared to treat the fish you will increase you sucess in the fish surviving. I have never encountered a fish that was directly hurt or killed by the proper use of copper or hypo methods that are properly administered and monitored. I have had fish die from not catching a disease soon enough and/or trying to set up a rapid qt and having ammonia spike! Once the treatment is done and you see no issues, they keep the fish in qt for awhile longer. If it reappears, its easy to resume treatment. This time also provides a chance for the fish to fully recover before being transitioned to a display.

I wont be the only one to have experienced all the issues you are worried about and come to the conclusion that these steps are absolutely needed for success long term. There are people that have got lucky and never had to take these precautions. Eventually everyone will encounter disease and parasite issues with fish/coral/etc and once they learn that costly lesson they agree as well.

Good luck to you on the Achilles, they are wonderful fish and my main concern is that you find success with keeping him for the long term.

 

[R6REEFER]

Why a metal halide?

Ny thought would be a worst case scenario of velvet i would think you would want it dark. As it feeds on light as well as its host. Also the fish will need quarantined for more than a month if it is ick or velvet, 76 or something days in qt away from display. I maybe wrong here however

I have the worst luck with tangs so i may not be the best and it lol

See that's the info I'm looking for, thanks brotha ;) That's just the only light I have lying around although he would get plenty of light in the livingroom from French doors and tv, lights, etc. Just enough to see his food.

 

[R6REEFER]

I ran mine through TTM 2x now with no issues. I'd say 90% chance it comes down with anything, it'll be ich so that will do the trick for it and have him ich free by the 12th day.

If it somehow has velvet, chloroquine phosphate is what I'd use.

The 1 degree temp difference is irrelevant. Low pH doesn't matter either for this situation as long as it's above 7.8. I agree on the MH being overkill. If you use CP, the UV from the MH light will reduce its effectiveness.

If you are going to use TTM, then use all new water. If you are using copper, ideally use new water but using tank water is fine as well. Just common sense would dictate not to use the water that is infected to treat the fish in.

You will need to establish a working biofilter prior if you are using copper and keep up on water changes to keep ammonia levels low. I'd suggest throwing a sponge in your sump now and letting it develop some bacteria so that you can transfer it to the QT.

If you are doing TTM, my usual procedure is to get dry rock (that way I know there aren't any ich tomonts in the rock ready to release the next batch to infest my fish), cycle it in a separate container with a pump, pour instant bacteria in a bottle in there...meanwhile, do the 12 days of the TTM. Once TTM has finished, put the cycled live rock in the QT tank and put the fish in there. Monitor for ammonia but I've never had any creep up with this method. I like this the best because I don't have to do water changes in the QT for the 76 days the DT has to be fallow to rid it of ich.

If you're going to be treating the achilles, you might as well be treating the whole tank population as well, otherwise, you'll have a clean fish with nowhere to go. You wouldn't put him back in with infected fish or in an infected tank. That's just going to make you do it all over again.

Thank you for the thorough reply! Unfortunately my place now is air tight so my tank settles to a Ph of 7.2 if I don't tend to. I've also read several articles that say the Achilles needs a Ph of 8.1, not quite a necessity but it's for the best. That isn't a problem though, I can get 8.3 no problem.

After doing some quick reading I believe I'd rather go the TTM route if it's ich. I have 3 vacant tanks and plenty of resources so it's quite feasible. Ideally I'd like to do whatever stresses the fish the least. Any other infections/parasites I'd do CP treatment. Im waiting on my Paraguard to arrive in the mail which I will be using as preventative measures along side my garlic sheets and both Hex Shield and Ich shield pellets.

By sponge you literally mean sponge like from the sink? Obviously new and without the coarse scrubby side. I read similar info in an article yesterday but I didn't quite know what they meant by sponge.

By the way, for any new hobbyists reading for advice, DO NOT USE PRIME OR ANY OTHER AMMONIA DETOXIFIERS WHILE TREATING WITH COPPER!

Yes they'd all get treated as I only have 3 fish: Orchid Dottyback, Maroon Clown, and Achilles Tang. I had an engineering goby but he found it necessary to randomly swim into the MP40... It's going to stay that way too.

Thanks again for that thorough reply, that was the exact information I was looking for! I'll buy you a beer sometime :p

 

[R6REEFER]

As most of you have read my Achilles posts, this is branching from the medication post for a worst case scenario.

I need to have a set in stone, full proof game plan if I ever need to set up a quarentine. I have a choice to use a 46g rimless, 20g frag, or the good ol' 55. I think 55 would be best for Mr. Achilles tang. So everythings at the house, 55g tank, MH lighting, salt for days, I make my own RO/DI, PVC, powerheads, etc. I find it unnecessary to set up this 55g as a full time quarantine as I will no longer be purchasing anymore fish. Not to mention it would be a waste of resources. This 55g will be turned into a seperate system in the future once my house is built.

So let's say worst case he comes down with a bit of Ich, crypt, or velvet. As soon as I see signs I'm calling in and setting up quarantine. My question is should I use water from the current display, half and half, or all fresh mixed? Common sense says all fresh but if the fish if going to be in there for a month I would think it's quite unrealistic to say I would be able to keep relevant parameters as the tank isn't cycled. I've heard several opinions, some do all display, some do all fresh. I was thinking my response would be as follows:

-As soon as fish has noticeable symptoms start throwing together 55g with all necessary equipment and filtration.

-Perform 30g waterchange on current display and use that water to fill quarantine. Top off quarantine with freshly mixed water.

-Catch fish in fish trap and toss him in. Treat with medication (most likely Cupramine as I've already got it on hand). Set up secondary ATO and do recommended water changes with fresh mix all while monitoring parameters daily.

My big tank has a problem with naturally low Ph which is rectified by my 2 part dosing. I'm thinking of setting up the quarantine by my back porch door so I can run an air line to powerhead as I've already demonstrated (on youtube) that will bring water to a nifty Ph of 8.2.

I may be leaving some obvious steps out but this is the general idea. What do you guys think? Any recommendations or tips/advice? Coral has always been my forte and I've been fortunate enough to never introduce any disease into my tank as I dip everything before it goes in. Another bit of important info, I keep my tank at 79 (+ or - 1 due to heating system) degrees. I hear warmer is better in terms of keeping the fishes metabolism and immune system in check. My last tank which had alot of fish I kept at 80 degrees and I had beautiful coloration and no problems. I dropped this system to 79 because of the &[HASHTAG]#177[/HASHTAG]; 1 thing. Any knowledge there?

Thanks in advance!!

Mr. Achilles himself :) For you negative individuals I last encountered.... he is doing fantastic in his new home so far. Eating like a champ, no longer skittish, and chubbing up nicely! ;)

Picture didn't upload correctly...

 

[805reef]

A regular sink sponge may work, I use these kind though: https://smile.amazon.com/Aquaclear-50-Gallon-Foam-Inserts-3-Pack/dp/B0002AQK4S

Also, just to be sure you are aware, if the Achilles gets ich and you take it out of your DT and QT it, then you need to keep the DT fallow(free of all fish) for 76 days so that the ich can die off completely, otherwise it will just get back onto your Achilles if you put him back in before 76 days is up.



Edit: Also, good look with this guy. I love these fish! I had one a few months ago but it died so I decided not to get another one. I love seeing them though so thanks for sharing the pics of him!

 

[FarmerTy]

Thank you for the thorough reply! Unfortunately my place now is air tight so my tank settles to a Ph of 7.2 if I don't tend to. I've also read several articles that say the Achilles needs a Ph of 8.1, not quite a necessity but it's for the best. That isn't a problem though, I can get 8.3 no problem.

After doing some quick reading I believe I'd rather go the TTM route if it's ich. I have 3 vacant tanks and plenty of resources so it's quite feasible. Ideally I'd like to do whatever stresses the fish the least. Any other infections/parasites I'd do CP treatment. Im waiting on my Paraguard to arrive in the mail which I will be using as preventative measures along side my garlic sheets and both Hex Shield and Ich shield pellets.

By sponge you literally mean sponge like from the sink? Obviously new and without the coarse scrubby side. I read similar info in an article yesterday but I didn't quite know what they meant by sponge.

By the way, for any new hobbyists reading for advice, DO NOT USE PRIME OR ANY OTHER AMMONIA DETOXIFIERS WHILE TREATING WITH COPPER!

Yes they'd all get treated as I only have 3 fish: Orchid Dottyback, Maroon Clown, and Achilles Tang. I had an engineering goby but he found it necessary to randomly swim into the MP40... It's going to stay that way too.

Thanks again for that thorough reply, that was the exact information I was looking for! I'll buy you a beer sometime :p

I personally mean the black sponges that are sold for aquarium use.

Make sure with TTM to not use any of the same equipment between tanks. Use different heaters, pumps, aerators, etc. And most importantly... don't ever surpass 72 hrs... EVER! If you do, restart. That's why I had to do mine 2x... I went pass 72hrs, on the last transfer... I thought, surely I should be fine since the last one is redundant... nope!

I'll be selling frags at the next SoaSA swap in July Trevor. If a beer magically shows up, I won't turn it down. ;)

 

[FarmerTy]

Oh, I know I'm only looking at a picture but he may already have ich on the fin. The back white dot on his tail looks like a copepod on the glass but the one on his front pectoral fin looks like possible ich? You have him in person so could probably tell better but just wanted to point out just in case.

 

[TylerS]

I think from what I've read that if you physically see signs of Velvet your hours away from the fish dying, if it's not to late already, and need immediate relief. One way to do that is a freshwater dip, which I haven't seen mentioned yet. Google it for directions. Just transferring it to a freshly made saltwater tank and then starting tank transfer wouldn't cut it.

Some would assume a freshwater dip is included as part of the tank transfer method, but i wanted to make sure you didn't miss that important step.

Also as I mentioned velvet kills really fast. If it was my prized fish and I saw symptoms I would not do tank transfer method at all, and would go straight to freshwater dip + medication (chloroquine phosphate or cupramine). I think the tank transfer method works best as a way to quarantine new arrivals without medication that can have it's own side effects.

 

[FarmerTy]

I think from what I've read that if you physically see signs of Velvet your hours away from the fish dying, if it's not to late already, and need immediate relief. One way to do that is a freshwater dip, which I haven't seen mentioned yet. Google it for directions. Just transferring it to a freshly made saltwater tank and then starting tank transfer wouldn't cut it.

Some would assume a freshwater dip is included as part of the tank transfer method, but i wanted to make sure you didn't miss that important step.

Also as I mentioned velvet kills really fast. If it was my prized fish and I saw symptoms I would not do tank transfer method at all, and would go straight to freshwater dip + medication (chloroquine phosphate or cupramine). I think the tank transfer method works best as a way to quarantine new arrivals without medication that can have it's own side effects.

To clarify, TTM does nothing for marine velvet. It's only for ich.

Tyler hit the nail on the head, if its velvet and you see symptoms, you're already in trouble. Unlike ich, freshwater baths actually give immediate relief from velvet but you have the potential to also lose the fish if the infection is too advanced.

I like to treat velvet with CP when encountered.

 

[Diesel]

Glad that your Achilles is ok and that you finally look ino the right direction if something will go wrong.

Btw,

For you negative individuals I last encountered

The comments made were not negative but more like a warning that we like to be sure what you were trying to do can have negative results and that you would be aware of that.

 

[Humblefish]

FWIW; I've treated several Achilles with CP and it has always gone pretty smoothly. TTM would work too, but I'd probably do it with an Achilles in at least a 20L and provide plenty of gas exchange. These fish are worth the extra effort. ;)

 

[R6REEFER]

FYI:

I've heard everyone saying these new Hex and Ich shield medicated foods won't work because the fish won't eat it. Got em in today and just watched Mr. Achilles, Orchid dottyback, and maroon clown destroy this stuff! I'd highly recommend, it's packed with vitamins, HUFA'S, other necessities. Hex-Shield having the most robust analysis of all.

 

[FarmerTy]

FYI:

I've heard everyone saying these new Hex and Ich shield medicated foods won't work because the fish won't eat it. Got em in today and just watched Mr. Achilles, Orchid dottyback, and maroon clown destroy this stuff! I'd highly recommend, it's packed with vitamins, HUFA'S, other necessities. Hex-Shield having the most robust analysis of all.

The problem with these foods is there has been no conclusive evidence that ingesting them will do anything at all. The active ingredient is a form of chloroquine phosphate I believe but CP works while in the water column. There has been no evidence of it being within the fish's system after ingestion has the same effect nor is there any test results that can even confirm a desired level to maintain within the fish's body. Even if it said you want to keep X level in the fish's system, how would you ensure that and also how would you maintain that therapeutic level consistently?

FWIW. I fed the heck out of my fish which broke out in ich with this stuff, no change. When I took all the fish out and treated, the problem was resolved.

It may work for you but I can at least say it definitely didn't work for me. I suspect it killed my fungia plate too as some pellets landed on it and then it slowly died. CP is a strong algaecide and the way the fungia died was symptomatic of death by starvation from all the zooxanthallae that died within it... starving the poor thing.

 

[R6REEFER]

A regular sink sponge may work, I use these kind though: https://smile.amazon.com/Aquaclear-50-Gallon-Foam-Inserts-3-Pack/dp/B0002AQK4S

Also, just to be sure you are aware, if the Achilles gets ich and you take it out of your DT and QT it, then you need to keep the DT fallow(free of all fish) for 76 days so that the ich can die off completely, otherwise it will just get back onto your Achilles if you put him back in before 76 days is up.



Edit: Also, good look with this guy. I love these fish! I had one a few months ago but it died so I decided not to get another one. I love seeing them though so thanks for sharing the pics of him!

Any time brotha! Sorry to hear yours died :( Here he is right now after eating his Hex-Shield :)

 

[R6REEFER]

I personally mean the black sponges that are sold for aquarium use.

Make sure with TTM to not use any of the same equipment between tanks. Use different heaters, pumps, aerators, etc. And most importantly... don't ever surpass 72 hrs... EVER! If you do, restart. That's why I had to do mine 2x... I went pass 72hrs, on the last transfer... I thought, surely I should be fine since the last one is redundant... nope!

I'll be selling frags at the next SoaSA swap in July Trevor. If a beer magically shows up, I won't turn it down. ;)

Mentally noted! I was supposed to have a table at that swap but I can't make it. I do have a table reserved for C4 though ;)

 

[dbrewsky]

We want you to have success with keeping your fish alive! If you are already seeing symptoms of ich/velvet you need to take immediate, drastic action if your fish have a chance to pull through. That means catch every fish, and start them on copper or cp yesterday. TTM method will not help if velvet is in play. The food is a cool idea and all but will not save a fish with such a sensitivity to parasites. The number one reason for difficulty with these fish is ICH. Take the proper steps now and save your fish, every day you continue to not address this reduces the chance it will pull through exponentially.

 

[4FordFamily]

Glad that your Achilles is ok and that you finally look ino the right direction if something will go wrong.

Btw,
The comments made were not negative but more like a warning that we like to be sure what you were trying to do can have negative results and that you would be aware of that.

X2 and in addition you're hearing them repeated again and again. It's not negative, we are trying to help. Experience and facts are what they are. We don't always like to hear them but it doesn't make them negative. Again, best of luck to you we are all cheering for your success