Back at it! Peroxide vrs cyanobacteria

[twilliard]

Hey I appreciate all the input but dosages for cyanobacteria are not proven yet.
Improper use can lead to unwanted effects and loss.
I would feel bad if there was a tank loss based on dosages in this thread that is not proven.

 

[DannyB]

I will wait until your write up before I attempt it.

 

[twreefer]

It has always puzzled me when people say cyano is due to low flow. My huge outbreak is in my sump which gets more flow than anywhere.

 

[acidtablockshifty]

can anyone add more about the shrimp things, from what i have read it could effect their ability to molt, so for those that have used it with shrimp, are they still molting fine. My shrimp have pretty steady molt like at least once a month if not every two weeks, but just wondering if anyone keeps track of this when dosing.

 

[Amphibious]

Has any one heard of the Sochting Oxydator from Germany? It’s a patented device to dose H2o2 into aquariums and ponds 24/7. Before any of you panic, it’s done in tiny amounts. I’ve been using them in my systems for over a year. Dosing peroxide has several advantages besides killing algae. In fact the killing of algae is a side benefit. Using the Sochting Oxydator raises oxygen levels, improves redox potential (ORP), lowers Nitrates and Phosphates.

The strength of the H2o2 is important. It states from 3 to 6% Food Grade. Why Food Grade peroxide I’m not sure. Had to find it in the Internet, not hard but a bit expensive. I found 35% in quart size. I dilute it down to 8.75% by mixing a quart into a gallon jug and adding RO/DI water to fill the gallon. I have not found any adverse effects of using the stronger H2o2.

There are several sizes available and it’s important to use the proper size.

If anyone wants to know more, you can PM me.

Dick

 

[Amphibious]

can anyone add more about the shrimp things, from what i have read it could effect their ability to molt, so for those that have used it with shrimp, are they still molting fine. My shrimp have pretty steady molt like at least once a month if not every two weeks, but just wondering if anyone keeps track of this when dosing.

I have Cleaner Shrimp in one of my systems with no effects on molting. In another system I have SW Grass Shrimp and they are fine, too.

My corals, fish, pods all seem to benefit from the increased oxygen levels. Remember, all your adding to your tank through the Sochting Oxydator is pure water (H20) and pure oxygen (o) broken apart inside the ceramic part of the oxydator and being slowly released.

Dick

 

[Bill Bolton]

Why would people want to treat a tank with chemicals when it has been proven for decades that cyano outbreaks are usually from poor circulation and a nutrient rich environment. change flow patterns or add a powerhead to add flow, and decrease feeding a touch and cyano will go away. Algae is due to high nutrients and nitrates. Cut feeding, do water changes, algae gone. These are all basic reef keeping knowledge.

 

[brandon429]

Bill, the reason why is the same as why do people dose carbon or vodka when they could just keep a lesser bioload, everything we do is a bandaid for nondilution. If you started a thread beconing just cyano entrants only, where people give live time feedback, many tanks won't comply as shut -and-close as it may seem.

All cure claims must be backed by cure threads I think. Zero formal articles, those are safe zone works heh.


i agree about control of waste sinks, that's why I'm cyano free I don't need peroxide for it. But in addressing needs of the masses, not everyone agrees to a recommended trial cleaning run and many post growbacks after following advice which is the unique accountability threads provide. Invite just 20 algae problem tanks into a thread, try and fix off those basics alone. Herding cats heh

More is required to run such threads, beyond the basics. Some do it with algae scrubber arrangements, we are all offsetting dilution issues.

On the peroxide thread linked earlier which we focus for about 200 combined pages on algae, and not cyano, your thread Todd has valuable additions for us to glean about its expanding range of biological applications. The primary value of 200 pages of all types of algae/peroxide in tanks is seeing repeating variables. Some of the tanks were sps tanks worth twenty grand, in the reefcentral peroxide thread specifically. Those pages buried among type anecdote actually house pics of every known reef tank inhabitant pre and post dose, but that stuff comes in messy bulk and among much to sift. Price of free data for the taking=bulk posts.

Very large threads exist comparing the non catalyzed addition of peroxide as is considered here vs the catalyzed and isolated breakdown within an oxydator. The impact difference is the list of known sensitives with the non catalyzed version.


Cyano is an ongoing threat even in freshwater tanks. I have three annoying patches of green cyano in a work terrarium, it's everywhere by design and your thread is valuable work angle to see. There is an unending, absolutely unending demand for in tank dosing. We dose vodka into the water. Stump dissolver. Mag flake from Home Depot. our hobby demands to know more about full tank dosing and dilution mechanics for the tools we use. This thread you have made with momentum is gold.


This will become a collection of whole tank dosings which we value tremendously. key take away from 200 pages worth online to save someone from a years worth of sifting:

At no degree in any dosage in any overdose practically speaking are filtration bacteria or denitrifying bacteria affected. Good luck producing reef tank results to the demonstrable opposite, our number one claim is that due to variables not considered all bac in concern are housed away safely even if you dose the whole tank. Even with 35%, I have videos of putting 35% inside a tiny one gallon reef at the tune of about five mils. Peroxide dosing no matter how long you sustain it within reason (I didn't say 100% peroxide water, within reason as people do) isn't harming, changing or affecting any form of ammonia oxidation measurable with accessible hobby kits, the ones we base entire tank actions on when not considering peroxide


Most every coral and clam known will tolerate the dosage of one mil to ten gallons, that's our working safe zone set to the tune of what zapped the most invaders in the early testing runs comprising the old threads after JC posted his findings and pretty much introduced peroxide

Peroxide as full tank dosings, the 1:10 ratio, the forums did that. Forums always wind up dumping things in the water, recurring theme about supply and demand. They were shown external treatments, someone went and dumped in a liter the rest is history


The most sensitive animals we keep to peroxide in order in my opinion are lysmata and cousins #1, some always get lucky, hermodice fire worms (tanks with known many might preclude peroxide dosing) xenia, decorative macro for clear reasons (we fix macro invasion tanks with it x a hundred) many anemones get mad at it but don't die, coralline bleaches and then you have odds and ends, statistical outlier losses from unnamed variables such as "I had zoanthids die" but they were withdrawn and isolated and not communal...tall/lanky on the way outs. We watched for patterns to get our list of sensitives and tolerants. In the higher doses exceeding 2-3:10 those pre-stressed corals may start to give more but by and large our threads shown just about every coral kept as tolerant, within reason.

Using full mode lighting is amplifying grossly the action of tank wide peroxide. If anything is on the brink, people need to cut back lighting as if it was a new light and ramp up after your main targets are assessed. Watch out for these hidden and profound peroxide amplifiers (likely involved in the outliers)

Alk spikes will kill when combined with peroxide
High lighting especially whites
I do not know what effect uv has, probably degradative not sure

Lower your alk a safe bit before full tank runs, if you run high alk typically. Def don't do extended bright lighting, high alk and peroxide unless you have the worst invasions that's a coral bleaching formula, but ironically a line to consider walking for the meanest ostreopsis Dino invasions responding to nothing.

Zoanthids are the most tolerant of all corals
I routinely blast all mine with straight 35%, blanch $60 zo colonies white and closed tightly, only to have them open in one hour. As testing. Mine are colonial, compact, well fed and I don't have outlier outcomes

resoundingly across posters in our collection, zoanthids are top strengths I bet it's that pachyderm-like cortical layer when they are healthy.

Everyone should find the gross overdose threads for fine learning too. Russ, a poster here, has the finest continual guided overdose on an sps tank I recall. Many sps subjected to far worse than person X did when they added just a bit too much, and are now concerned about cycling or coral loss (see first tenet, no requisite bacteria are harmed=a claim inviting testing in reef tank conditions, prove the null anyone and post back)

Regarding the safety of various people trying tank wide dosings, it's my opinion it's not that big a deal to consider the sensitive organisms, run a squirt or three and post back. I know T wasn't trying to advocate anarchy just thought I'd toss a hat in reflecting on a gazillion hair algae dosers who did the same thing.

**the best efforts are reverse of the normal inclination, to dump peroxide into an invaded tank to see if itll clean and reduce for you. We should hand clean out all visible cyano via export and water change, work hard as your cyano indicates waste reserves as causative in 9/10 cases, then try your peroxide tests on a clean tank, solely as growback preventive. That specific tweak will take a hundred non compliant tanks and make them comply. The work element was missing, detritus has set in some ***** sandbeds I'll guarantee, and if you undo your nonwork first, dose second, you amplify the effects of any dose against your target in the most basic and non bandaid way.

very detailed example threads exist to show one how to clean out a cruddy sandbed and not recycle a reef tank, a few are on my profile page.

Had a lot to type Team, night

 

[Reeflogic]

Hey guys, I've been dipping frags in h2o2 for years, to hopefully kill the nasty algae that can sneak in... (bryopis ) If the peroxide is only staying active in the system for 24 hours and you have to re-dose every 24 hours, how is it targeting cyano or nuisance algae? I was recently dosing 1:10 to target said bryopsis; however, I decided to pull the large rocks for a direct application and scrub with a toothbrush. Is the continual dosing administered in hopes that it eventually finds and attacks its target? Or is the continual dosing attacking the target slowly every day and eventually eradicates it? I hope that makes sense! I'm just trying to know how it is working within the reef.

Also, I have a question about BTA's. I notice they freak out pretty bad if h2o2 comes in contact with them. Are there any long-term detrimental effects to anemones, while dosing? Thanks for your research @twilliard !

 

[brandon429]

Why are you up this late it's going to be a problem long about 2 pm.

heh

I recall no anemone losses at all, but many mad anemones, stuff of nightmares
Mesenteries
The works

 

[Reeflogic]

lol... researching, sir!! But, you did remind me that I should probably get some shut eye!

 

[petemichelle]

following. thanks for doing this

 

[twilliard]

Why would people want to treat a tank with chemicals when it has been proven for decades that cyano outbreaks are usually from poor circulation and a nutrient rich environment. change flow patterns or add a powerhead to add flow, and decrease feeding a touch and cyano will go away. Algae is due to high nutrients and nitrates. Cut feeding, do water changes, algae gone. These are all basic reef keeping knowledge.

Decades ago they thought cyanobacteria was an algae, it's not.
It's a photosynthetic bacteria clearly defined on any search.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyanobacteria
It doesn't need nutrients
It doesn't care about flow
It does care about where it can set foot down, soak up any kind of lighting

This is why I am doing this to help educate people about this common tank issue with user friendly solutions.

 

[TheEngineer]

Knowledge bomb. lol

 

[twilliard]

Want to know something cool
I grow it in a 5 gallon bucket of old stagnant saltwater

No pumps no heat normal old house lighting with no dosing of anything
Interesting growth patters!

 

[aop]

Just wanted to let you all know that after a long break from research I am back!

My next write up will be about cyanobacteria
So far with my initial testings it is looking promising!
I am waiting for my new microscope to come in to validate these current and stunning findings.
Stay tuned!

Nice waiting on ur results!!!

 

[reefwiser]

Knowledge is power. We always need to know more about all the problems we have in our aquariums so we make proper decisions.

 

[that Reef Guy]

It has always puzzled me when people say cyano is due to low flow. My huge outbreak is in my sump which gets more flow than anywhere.

Because it often is.

I have talked to many people about this.

I say how much flow do you have.

They say oh a TON.

I dig deeper and ask no exactly how much flow.

If they even know they tell me.

Then I am like really you think that is alot of flow?

I have Literally 5 times that much Flow.

What one Person views as lots of Flow and another Views as lots of Flow can be Vastly different.

Just because somebody tells you they have lots of flow doesn't always mean anything.

I mean I have had people tell me oh yeah I have Insane Flow.

What do you have?

An Aqua Clear 70 Filter on a 29 Gallon Tank (With No Power Heads)!

Some people are Clueless when it comes to Flow.

 

[Reeflogic]

@twilliard , you didn't answer my questions in post [HASHTAG]#109[/HASHTAG]!! Brandon answered me on the BTA question, but how is h2o2 actually doing its job in the system, as opposed to direct application. Since it only stays active for 24 hours, based on your research. Does it target bad stuff and chew away a little each day? Or does it continue to kill it off after the 24 hours pass? This may be a completely stupid question, I'm just trying to grasp how it's working, especially since I've read so many conflicting dosing percentages lately. Thank you, sir!!

 

[brandon429]

Hey I agree above that flow has corrected many a tank in online threads but theres a twist to mind in my opinion

its that outcomes get reversed if one starts a cure thread and tests it. theres no doubt that mixed in various cyano threads the flow increasers caused it to cease expression, hopefully that works as an easy first run before chem dosing, agreed.

nobody says chems have to be first go, just that the effects are well studied if someone wants to make a run at least vs 7 yrs ago.

if you literally make a cure thread doing only cyano tanks as flow adjustment changes, I bet 40% or less comply. valid test needs to be in one place and many samples imo

I believe in flow as a valid trial adjustment to run, and I give it 40% efficacy if tried in a cure thread. posters here could easily try flow adjusts before/during and report back agreed its good data.