Bacteria in a bottle, Myth or Fact

[IslandLifeReef]

These are biological products, and every system is different We determined a dosage that would guarantee success for the majority of scenarios. Sure, we could say 1oz TurboStart treat 250 gallons and it would do "something", but enough to make a difference? Probably not. We want FritzZyme to sell because it works and leads to success, not because we have the best price point and claim to treat some ridiculous volume of water. You get what you pay for. Thanks!

I get the feeling that you think I am trying to slight your product. Absolutely not. My observation was simply that a 1 oz bottle of Fritzyme 900 says it will treat a 25 gal tank while a 2 oz bottle of Dr Tim's says it will treat a 30 gal tank. Price points are very similar, your being slightly better. I was just curious if the results would be different if the amount of product used in the test were based on the amount the bottle states would treat a tank instead of the minimum amount required which was used for the Dr Tim's product. If this were the case, @Dr. Reef should have used 10 ml of Dr Tim's, not 5 ml. For the record, I cycled my tank with Fritzyme 9 and was happy with the results.

A truly reliable test can stand up to the rigors of questioning.

 

[mikeyn]

I get the feeling that you think I am trying to slight your product. Absolutely not. My observation was simply that a 1 oz bottle of Fritzyme 900 says it will treat a 25 gal tank while a 2 oz bottle of Dr Tim's says it will treat a 30 gal tank. Price points are very similar, your being slightly better. I was just curious if the results would be different if the amount of product used in the test were based on the amount the bottle states would treat a tank instead of the minimum amount required which was used for the Dr Tim's product. If this were the case, @Dr. Reef should have used 10 ml of Dr Tim's, not 5 ml. For the record, I cycled my tank with Fritzyme 9 and was happy with the results.

A truly reliable test can stand up to the rigors of questioning.

Absolutely not, just answering questions/concerns as we get these all the time.

Thanks!

 

[Dr. Reef]

@IslandLifeReef
I understand your concern about dosing amounts.
Honestly to be more realistic and more closer to a way hobbyist will use a product would be to take instructions of the label and dose accordingly.
So i dosed according to bottle instructions rather than same dosage as we really dont know how much bacteria is on say 1ml of Fritz vs Dr Tim.
Also Fritz is only product i never had to dose ever again after initial dose as results were clear after 24 hrs while other products i dosed some daily and some i gave up and double to triple the amount of dosing. In fact at one point i did 4 times the amount of Seed and Stability in one test.
I hope that clears up your concern.
If needed i can conduct another study with equal amounts in ml per tank per product.

 

[Amoo]

@mikeyn Thank you for the heat information. While your product is doing well in these tests, as you're aware part of @Dr. Reef 's motivation was to inform the community if these products even work. Anytime you're willing to share information from your own testing or answer community questions that come up as a result of these tests, it's a large boon to the community as a whole. Thank you for that.

 

[Dr. Reef]

Today is the 8th day since i setup this last study.
I started with 4 products and dosed ammonia to 1 ppm.
After 2 days I tested Fritz to be 0 while Dr Tim was 0.75ppm and Seed and Prodibio were 1 ppm

Today is the last day i have to rest the tanks for next round.
As of today,
Fritz tank is 0
Dr Tim is 0.25
Seed 1 ppm
Prodibio 1ppm
Control 1 ppm

I will reset all tanks by this weekend and re do this test with same ml dosage per tank per product. as per @IslandLifeReef mentioned earlier.
This final test will conclude group 1 and i will move on to group 2 at the end of this study.

 

[IslandLifeReef]

@Dr. Reef, I can see your point that most people would read minimum dosage and use that for various reasons. I see that you are going to change the dosage on the last test basing it on how large of a tank each bottle recommends. It will be interesting to see if that makes a difference or not. My hypothesis, based on your previous results is that Dr. Tim's product will show better results than the previous tests, but that the Fritzyme will still get rid of the ammonia the quickest.

 

[mikeyn]

@Dr. Reef, I can see your point that most people would read minimum dosage and use that for various reasons. I see that you are going to change the dosage on the last test basing it on how large of a tank each bottle recommends. It will be interesting to see if that makes a difference or not. My hypothesis, based on your previous results is that Dr. Tim's product will show better results than the previous tests, but that the Fritzyme will still get rid of the ammonia the quickest.

If you add more nitrifying bacteria to the system (true viable nitrifiers) the ammonia/nitrite will be oxidized faster.

 

[Dr. Reef]

I agree with you @IslandLifeReef
My prediction is the same as yours. But it would be interesting to see if the drop in ammonia takes the same amount of time or less compared to the last few tests.

 

[Dr. Reef]

Today i have all 5 tanks set back up with fresh 1 cup of sand, fresh ceramic rings (25 pieces) in HOB with 3 oz filter floss. another 1000 g of rings on sand bed.
All 5 tanks are setup same way with 4.7gal of water when full and running. for easier calculations i will assume all tanks to be 5 gal.
Freshly made Instant Ocean regular saltwater at 78F sg 1.023. All tanks are dosed ammonium chloride at 1ppm.

following are the dosage mentioned on the back of the 4 bottles:

Dosage per manufacturers:

1. Seachem Seed 5ml/10g 1st day, then 5ml /20g everyday for 7 days
2. Prodibio 2 vial for 5-30 gal (all i have is 2 vials left)
3. Dr Tim One and only 10 ml per 10 gal
4. Fritz turbo start 30ml per 25 gal

due the concern @IslandLifeReef brought up and due to fact that prodibio calls for 2 full vial for any tank size between 1-30 gal, which puts prodibio at max ml per gal, i will use max of each bottle to be fair among all the manufacturers.
Prodibio max out at 30 gal per use so i will consider each tank to be 30gal and dose accordingly


1. Seachem Seed (5 ml/10 g 1st day, then 5 ml /20 g everyday for 7 days)
so my dose will be 15 ml first day, 7.5 ml daily for 7 days

2. Prodibio 2 vial for 5-30 gal (all i have is 2 vials left)
2 vials are good for up to 30 gal tank

3. Dr Tim One and only (10 ml per 10 gal)
will dose 30 ml

4. Fritz turbo start 30 ml per 25 gal
will dose 36 ml

I havent dosed bacteria yet, each tank has been up and ready and last hour i dosed 1 ppm ammonia in each. I want @IslandLifeReef and others to look at the dosage and my theory behind it to max it and let me know before i actually dose the bacteria just in case if my calculations or theory is wrong. ill wait till early morning hours for everyones reply to adjust if not i will carry on to dose at 6am.
Thank you everyone

 

[MnFish1]

I think you should only follow the directions. I don’t think it’s unfair to do that. If the probiotic is dosed 2 vials for a 5 gallon tank. Great that’s what a hobbiest would do. I would dose dr Tim’s and the rest per the instructions only because that’s what a hobbies would do. IMHO it’s the only fair way to do it

 

[MnFish1]

Part 2. I mean according to fritz you can use up to 5x the recommended dose. So all of them have some wiggle room. I would just follow the dosing Instructions for a 5 gallon tank for each manufacturer. But I see your rationale. And thanks again for doing this!

 

[IslandLifeReef]

@Dr. Reef,
Fritzyme says not to dose more that 5 times the recommended ammount, so I would only dose 30 ml so that you don't exceed the manufacturers recommendations.

Dr. Tim's says you can't overdose and they recommend using the whole bottle for best results. The 10ml per 10 gal is a minimum dosage per the directions and the bottle says that 60 ml treats 30 gal. I would use 20 ml per 10 gal for dosing. To keep it close to the same ratio as Fritzyme, I would suggest 50 ml of Dr Tim's.

Here's the math.

Fritzyme: 30ml/25gal = Xml/5gal. X=6 ml. Max dosage is 5*X = 30 ml

Dr. Tim's: 60ml/30gal = Xml/5gal. X=10 ml. Using the same max dosage as Frytzyme 5*X = 50 ml.
**Dr Tim's bottle says you can not overdose, so 50 ml would be the minimum dosage I would use. In theory, and following Dr Tim's recommendation, you could use the whole bottle.**

Hope this is clear.

Thanks.

 

[Dr. Reef]

@MnFish1
thank you for commenting and good to hear from you back on the thread, its been a while.
All test before were done according to doses mentioned on instructions. but @IslandLifeReef has a good point that each bottale has different amount of bacteria and dosing capacities and in order to be fair consolidate the dosing capacity at a central point where they all meet and i find 30gal to be the meeting point in each tank. Just to put it to rest.
I agree most hobbyist will only use as instructed.

 

[Dr. Reef]

@IslandLifeReef important catch i missed.
So here is what i will dose

Seed 15ml day 1 and 7.5 daily
Prodibio 2 vials
Dr Tim 50ml
Fritz 30ml

 

[MnFish1]

Yes I read his comments and I see the point. The question is not to make sure all of them have the same bacteria to start. The point is to see if they work at all per the instructions and secondly whether one seems to work better. I guess changing the dose to match fritz would be a second experiment imho. Maybe a compromise would be to dose each with the maximum recommended dose?

 

[MnFish1]

Yes I read his comments and I see the point. The question is not to make sure all of them have the same bacteria to start. The point is to see if they work at all per the instructions and secondly whether one seems to work better. I guess changing the dose to match fritz would be a second experiment imho. Maybe a compromise would be to dose each with the maximum recommended dose?

By the way perhaps that’s how you’re doing it. I didn’t redo the dosing calculations

 

[MnFish1]

Again. There is no right or wrong here and I’m not criticizing @IslandLifeReef at all. Just that one important thing when you’re doing experiments like this is its best to just follow the design planned not changing in the middle. Because in the end if you decide to change it to make one product look better or equalize th somehow that wasn’t planned it undermines the whole conclusion. For example what would have happened in the 8ppm experiment if all the doses had been altered etc etc. this is just a comment not a critique

 

[MnFish1]

Again. There is no right or wrong here and I’m not criticizing @IslandLifeReef at all. Just that one important thing when you’re doing experiments like this is its best to just follow the design planned not changing in the middle. Because in the end if you decide to change it to make one product look better or equalize th somehow that wasn’t planned it undermines the whole conclusion. For example what would have happened in the 8ppm experiment if all the doses had been altered etc etc. this is just a comment not a critique

 

[Dr. Reef]

I agree with you @MnFish1 and also the concern by @IslandLifeReef
It's best to finish out this last round the way it was designed to conclude best of 3 results.
So I have a solution. I run this last test as is with the previous doses done before for this round 3.
Then I can reset and match doses as islandlifereef suggests and see the difference.
By the way in 8ppm test we did dose and double the dose to see if it made a difference. But those are side notes/studies.
I have enough product on hand and thanks to Fritz I have some more on the way.
Prodibio is the last 2 vials left. I don't mind buying from brs when next study is conducted as it was shipped from Europe and took a while to get it. It will also show if longer duration of shipping might have had an effect on it.

 

[IslandLifeReef]

Again. There is no right or wrong here and I’m not criticizing @IslandLifeReef at all. Just that one important thing when you’re doing experiments like this is its best to just follow the design planned not changing in the middle. Because in the end if you decide to change it to make one product look better or equalize th somehow that wasn’t planned it undermines the whole conclusion. For example what would have happened in the 8ppm experiment if all the doses had been altered etc etc. this is just a comment not a critique

Yes I read his comments and I see the point. The question is not to make sure all of them have the same bacteria to start. The point is to see if they work at all per the instructions and secondly whether one seems to work better. I guess changing the dose to match fritz would be a second experiment imho. Maybe a compromise would be to dose each with the maximum recommended dose?

Here are the instructions for Dr Tim's One and Only:

Directions for Use:
SHAKE WELL BEFORE USING.
FOR BEST RESULTS, USE THE ENTIRE CONTENTS AT ONE TIME.
Minimum dose: 10 ml per 10 gallons of aquarium water.
Cannot be overdosed.

I was pointing out that the test was using the minimum amount, not the recommended dosage. The recommended dosage is the entire bottle. A 2 oz bottle, 60 ml, treats up to a 30 gal tank per the instructions.

Now here are the Fritzyme instructions:

Shake bottle, add 1 oz. (29 ml) TurboStart® per 25 gallons (95 L) of water.

On the Fritzyme, the recommended dose was used. With Dr. Tim's, the minimum dose was used.