Bacteria in bottle, busting myth, Seneye style.

[klp]

Not sure if I am being nit picky but to me 'old school' is using a dead shrimp from the butcher or sea food counter to start the cycle. Some also used a smaller live fish. Bottle would be newer. At least this is how I've read the books of old and performed anyway on my first marine cycle in 1999. Probably doesn't matter but after I read this and the old school comment I never once considered or remember reading to dose to 2ppm.

Old school from the 70's is using a hermit crab and feed it daily. More interesting and same results. Took about 6 weeks. Algae came up and it was not nuisance.

 

[RollTideReefer]

Sorry to resurrect an old post but I had a question. The Fritz Turbostart directions are not entirely clear online. I am starting a Red Sea Reefer 525XL next Saturday. My Aquarium service company plans to use Fritz TS 900 to seed the tank. The total volume of the tank is 139 gallons with sump and I will have about 100lbs of live rock. Do I put a couple of clowns in a day or two after seeding with Fritz? I have four clowns (two pairs) on hold at the LFS and would prefer to add them all at the same time so they are not territorial. Is 139 gallons big enough to support a 4 clown start? These clown are pretty small. Any suggestions are greatly appreciated.

 

[Hot2na]

my old school from the 70's story : we would go and trap about 500 killiefish from the local tidal tributary and introduce them to our tank -to "supercycle" them ..High ammonia spikes and then high crashes..when the cycle was done -we'd treat the tank with copper to rid any parasites that might have came in on the killies...

 

[2Wheelsonly]

my old school from the 70's story : we would go and trap about 500 killiefish from the local tidal tributary and introduce them to our tank -to "supercycle" them ..High ammonia spikes and then high crashes..when the cycle was done -we'd treat the tank with copper to rid any parasites that might have came in on the killies...

Good thing we don't do that crap anymore lol.

So thankful for critical thought and forward thinking that creates much better ways of doing things as time goes on.

 

[brandon429]

100 pounds of true live rock needs no boosting, no bottle bac, it shows up fully loaded with bacteria as moving rocks tank to tank does not kill bacteria requiring a do over

Even if there is a dry portion to be added to the live, don't add bottle bac it's a waste of money as the live portions contribute bac to the dry ones pretty fast. Bottle bac would be used if there was no live rock and it was a total dry start. 100 pounds of live rock would support twenty fish immediately, but have a disease protocol chosen for any fish added.

 

[Dr. Reef Verified Sponsor]

I visited Fritz manufacturing facility last week.
It was an amazing tour. I am under a contract not to say much in details but I can assure you it is a legit setup.

I was unsure of the procedure when I did these experiments. I am planning on doing another setup/experiment soon.

Most all manufacturers I talked to, you can dose a tank with bacteria and release a few small fish in there.

So my new test is just that. I will setup 4 tanks and take 4 products and dose each tank with bacteria and place a pair of clownfish in them.
I have Seneye monitors and will track ammonia.
We know that ammonia is ok upto 0.2ppm NH3 and toxic above 0.5ppm.
I'll pull the clowns out at 0.2 ppm and consider that product a failure.
I'll be reporting all my observations soon.

 

[brandon429]

Perfect experiment!

 

[brandon429]

The success rate of fish in cycle is astronomical even across bottle bac brands, I couldn’t for example produce a failed skip cycle thread off recent posts. Their clowns by and large stay alive so in prediction a very high rate of tested dosers will be under ld50 measures above. Can’t wait


the ability to control disease for those who opt for fish in cycling is astronomically bad however, other side of coin. buying truly pre quarantined fish, and adding to dry start tanks (vector free no fallow required for dt, just future additions) is a legit use for fish-in cycling science. if nitrite mattered in a cycle all these example thread fish would die, I cannot recall a single failed cycle example. At the same time the bottle bac industry proves instant ammonia control and then ten thousand successful fish-in cycles commence, they’re also proving at the same time nitrite doesn’t matter because one dose of bottle bac doesn’t give all supporting species for a cycle, it gives the species that matter/ ammonia controllers. Thats the going theory anyway. We are able to input fish and corals and inverts / MACNA convention reef/ long before the full complement of measurable bac are present. The start date has been officially moved -up- in reefing.


3 parameter measure cycling is dead. Only ammonia proofing matters.

 

[Dr. Reef Verified Sponsor]

I am pretty sure fish will live specially I will be monitoring NH3 levels.
Upto 0.2ppm is ok
0.2 to 0.5 is alarm
0.5 is toxic

Honestly I already know products will work as most know i sell quarantined fish. In between fish I bleach my tanks and clean them and reset them and dose bacteria and immediately place fish in them without ever losing any.

But I will do this in 5 gal tanks with sterile tank dry sand dry rock new media etc for sake of as close to perfect study I can achieve.

 

[brandon429]

Also important baseline: what seneye shows on average to a full running reef, it’s in the hundredths ppm consistently and never in the tenths (all fish accounted for) after cycling from what I can see off posted data. Jason M posted some cool average level graphs recently of those measures. Helps to compare efficacy of bottle bac against complete cycle system.

 

[Lasse]

IMO - the nitrification cycle is not completed before both steps work properly. This means that you should read 0 in nitrite too. It is true that nitrite normally not are deadly to most saltwater species but we do not know its effect for all living organisms in saltwater and not even knows its sublethal (chronic) effects on marine animals. If the nitrification cycle halts before the second step - we do not now the longtime effects. I prefer methods with a very low daily input of NH3/NH4 that give both the first and second steps time to start simultaneously. Bacteria in a bottle will speed up the process but the use of one or two fish that will be feed very sparsely the first weeks is IMO the best method to dose low amount of NH3/NH4 to the aquarium. I have started several hundred of aquariums of different size (both fresh and salt) with this method - never, ever a backslash in dead fishes.

I think its rather similar how @Dr. Reef :s start his QT

Also - if you (Dr. Reef) start an experiment - do it with different feedings regime and measure NO2 levels as well. For the book - sparsely feeding in the start is for me 2-4 frozen adult artemia/fish and every third day first week, every second day the second week and every day the third week

Sincerely Lasse

 

[brandon429]

How do all reefs in a macna convention meet the start date on time?

did this aquarium give nitrite controllers time to form? How is it trending during maturation...same as any other reef tank.


https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/bio-spira-works-great.668674/
nitrite impact is fully neutral in cycling, doesn’t matter what it reads. No reef tank cycle can stall, they all follow the timelines set by boosters used up to and including completely skipping the cycle (Starting with bioload, bacterial diversity catches up after)

It does take time for nitrite controlling bacteria to form, people have chosen to quit monitoring for it because it doesn’t matter how long they take to form. There are tanks to stock and deadlines to meet.


https://reefbuilders.com/2020/01/22/two-month-update-on-the-one-day-nano-reef-tank-build-video/
here is another instant start reef, bioload right at setup. It’s a wet rock controlled reef but that’s still a skip cycle, old rules told us we had to fully cycle a reef to make it work, two active tank examples show that’s not the case.


Neither nitrite nor nitrate were factored in the start date of those and thousands of other reefs. Cycling science is simply changing to meet a pacing demand. Today’s big concern should be about disease prevention, given all the new start tank rules/old cycling rules are gone due to what’s in the bottle.

*Dr Reef am aware your scope here is ammonia control based on a common start date people are using + fish. won’t turn into a full spectrum cycle battle lol.
B

 

[Lasse]

Nitrite is toxic for every organisms that use at least hemoglobin as an oxygen transporter. However - in saltwater (because the chloride level block the uptake from water) fish will normally not get nitrite into the blood stream (hence no conversion of the oxygen carrier hemoglobin into the no oxygen carrier methemoglobin). If you do the same trick in freshwater (with levels of nitrite) - it will result in dead fishes. The disease is named brown blood disease. Still we do not know the chronic effect of high nitrite levels, if it stress the fishes or if other stress can affect the block of uptake. It was a mistake back in the old days to assume that nitrite was as toxic in saltwater as it is in freshwater - let us not do the same mistake again and total neglect the toxic properties of nitrite. It is possible with adding low amount of NH3/NH4 simultaneously get both steps to work. You do not need to push in dead shrimps, high levels of "chemical" NH3/NH4 and wait for the NO2 peak you have created to go down. If you cycle with a very sparsely feed fish, adding nitrification bacteria every day - you will simultaneously start both steps without getting a NO2 top - and no risk of damage to your organisms.

I will say that this is exactly what Dr Reef i doing when he QT new fish

I agree with you that it is not necessary to get a nitrite peak - you can start both processes simultaneously if you do the right thing. But if you have got a NO2 top - you should be careful because we still not know everything that could happens

Sincerely Lasse

 

[brandon429]

We at least have two threads above to track for nitrite toxicity. no examples of nitrite toxicity/system loss in a reef tank able to be linked to show the risk also stands out. we can track cycles that did not use bottle bac as well for cycling verification.

 

[Lasse]

When I start my aquariums the way I have describe here - I never ever measure anything because I know that I do not need to do that.

Sincerely Lasse

 

[Dr. Reef Verified Sponsor]

all bottle bacteria also neutralize nitrites as well.
In my last study i saw 2ppm ammonia turn to 80ppm nitrates with 0 or under 1ppm nitrites.
All manufacturers tell me they have both bacteria that convert ammonia and nitrites.

In many studies done and posted all over including one Randy did, its took 300+ppm to wipe 25% of clownfish population.
In normal cycles we dont even see nitrites rise above 2-5 ppm.
With bottle bac i have never seen them rise above 1ppm.

 

[brandon429]

Ok great info, it’s nice to have these upper measures to work with, especially the ammonia toxicity levels.

 

[Dr. Reef Verified Sponsor]

I can do this study 2 ways.

1. Setup sterile tanks and dose bacteria and place fish. (this is what most all bacteria manufacturer say to do)

2. I can dose very small amounts of ammonia over 24 hrs and also dose bacteria and see how fast NH3 goes down to 0. (method seneye recommends)

I choose to conduct study 1 because that what bottle says and that would the closest to what manufacturer recommend hobbyist to do.

I am open for suggestions because i want to get the best out of these studies.

 

[brandon429]

sounds great what a strong contribution to the hobby.

We also want to side note if ammonia ever holds at any rating at any time on the seneye, or if it must stay in motion heading towards its destiny at the close of the cycle. We want to know even if a tank with fish not given natural time to cycle still controls it’s ammonia like a cycle chart, where motion is always trending down, holds at practical zero, and doesn’t come back up or hover



(which in the case of seneye should be practical zero/hundredths max measure)


fish feed will have to be sparing here to not interfere with fish waste control measure


A massive massive portion of bottle bac sales today are made under the notion of a stuck cycle, something that moves back an allowed start date. everyone who has ever reported a stuck cycle is not using seneye, tasty to examine what accurate measure might show. There are hundreds of cycling threads right now where detected nitrite or stuck low level ammonia has reefers buying up to four different brands of bottle bac just to cover bases. Nitrite factoring makes big cash for the bottle bac industry.

 

[Lasse]

We at least have two threads above to track for nitrite toxicity. Having no examples of nitrite toxicity in a reef tank able to be linked to show the risk also stands out. Try and find a single cycling example of nitrite toxicity in a reef tank from any forum.

You still not know the sublethal effects - if any. They can show up much later when you not automatically can bind them to the nitrite level you had.

all bottle bacteria also neutralize nitrites as well.
In my last study i saw 2ppm ammonia turn to 80ppm nitrates with 0 or under 1ppm nitrites.

If you have 1 ppm NO2 - your NO3 test will show between 50 - 100 ppm NO3 because the tests construction

All manufacturers tell me they have both bacteria that convert ammonia and nitrites.

Yes they have but IME I have seen the process stalling before the second step. There is studies that indicate that high level of NH3/NH4 itself can stop the second stages bacteria

In many studies done and posted all over including one Randy did, its took 300+ppm to wipe 25% of clownfish population.
In normal cycles we dont even see nitrites rise above 2-5 ppm.
With bottle bac i have never seen them rise above 1ppm.

That´s true but we still not know if there is ant sublethal effects. If I read NO2 levels around 1-5 ppm I would not panic but not add any more organisms to the system and stop feeding directly. I would continue adding bacteria and maybe some PO4 if needed and wait for the level going down. Not doing WC either - just wait for the level going down.

Sincerely Lasse