Bacteria ratios, putting a end to it!

[sixty_reefer]

Just testing the water this morning this will be the 10 hours results, I can visually observe that a small bloom has occurred

 

[sixty_reefer]

@taricha @MnFish1 it looks like your predictions on nitrates may not happen, as I was expecting the results are as follows from this morning (10 hours) since 5ml vodka was added.

phosphates is 0.1 to 0.05

nitrates is a clear 10

this is a decrease of 0.2 ppm phosphates minimum and a 10 ppm decrease in nitrates showing that the ratio will be somewhere around 50:1 with my unreliable test kits, if someone were to use Better quality test kits a more accurate number may occur

I will let the test run for the full 24 hours although bacteria increase may be limited by oxygen at this point, I will encourage anyone to mimic the test in a controlled manner obviously.

At list that’s one discussion that I will hope to end as of today, this test will also come in support of this article.

https://www.reef2reef.com/ams/understanding-nutrient-limitations.868/

@Randy Holmes-Farley i hope this can bring some light into our previous discussions.

 

[jrmailo]

@taricha @MnFish1 it looks like your predictions on nitrates may not happen, as I was expecting the results are as follows from this morning (10 hours) since 5ml vodka was added.

phosphates is 0.1 to 0.05

nitrates is a clear 10

this is a decrease of 0.1 ppm phosphates minimum and a 10 ppm decrease in nitrates showing that the ratio will be somewhere between 100:1 and 50:1 with my unreliable test kits, if someone were to use Better quality test kits a more accurate number may occur

I will let the test run for the full 24 hours although bacteria increase may be limited by oxygen at this point, I will encourage anyone to mimic the test in a controlled manner obviously.

At list that’s one discussion that I will hope to end as of today, this test will also come in support of this article.

https://www.reef2reef.com/ams/understanding-nutrient-limitations.868/

@Randy Holmes-Farley i hope this can bring some light into our previous discussions.

I too think that this experiment will be oxygen limited. In labs where we inoculcate and grow bacteria for experimental purposes, air lines are ran through the liquid media. We could usually reach mid log phase (comparable to bacteria bloom?) at around 5-6 hours mark.

Here I am afraid that the bacteria will be oxygen deprived and begin to die off, returning nutrients to the testing tank.

 

[sixty_reefer]

I too think that this experiment will be oxygen limited. In labs where we inoculcate and grow bacteria for experimental purposes, air lines are ran through the liquid media. We could usually reach mid log phase (comparable to bacteria bloom?) at around 5-6 hours mark.

Here I am afraid that the bacteria will be oxygen deprived and begin to die off, returning nutrients to the testing tank.

That’s correct, the next 12 hours will be interesting to find out if any nutrients get released back or will they stay trapped in the bacteria.
We would never induce a bloom in a living aquarium although this could be a good indication of a aquarium that reached 50ml of vodka dosing daily per 26 gallons of tank water, how much phosphates could be depleting by pelagic bacteria assimilation.
I believe that so far the main goal of the thread was achieved as there is good indications that the pelagic bacteria is consuming a good amount of phosphates.

 

[sixty_reefer]

This is the visual side by side between last night and this morning for nitrates and phosphates

Nitrates at 0 hours

nitrates at 10 hours

phosphates at 0 hours

phosphates at 10 hours

 

[Reefahholic]

As some of you may know already, I have been discussing extensively on bacterial ratios and the effects on po4.
today I decided that the subject it’s getting a bit tiring to me, so am going to do what is logical

I’ve pulled my testing tank from the garage and will put a end to the discussion trough testing.

Main goal here is:

Does carbon dosing reduces phosphates and if it does what’s the ratio?

for testing:

10 litres tank water (2.6 gallons)
Phosphates will aim at 0.5 ppm
Nitrates will aim at 20ppm
Carbon source will be vodka 1ml

The reason I am going for 1ml vodka in 10 litres of water is to try and create a bloom, this should create some reliable test results in less than 24hours.


anyone got any opinions or objections on the way the test is going to be carried out before I start I don’t use Hanna for po4 testing although I am happy for others that have a Hanna to replicate the test?

edit:
The display tank is 100 litres and it has a 2ml vodka dosing daily

What will you be using to test PO4?

 

[sixty_reefer]

What will you be using to test PO4?

I’m using a jbl test kit, it’s quite precise for high residual readings of phosphates. I like to run higher phosphates on my system for various reasons so it suits me well, the jbl has been compared to other test kits in previous experiments and it prove to have a good accuracy although I have asked in the thread if there anyone that would like to mimic the test with a Hannah that could bring some more accuracy to the ratio.

 

[Reefahholic]

Phosphates are sitting around 0.3 and added 2ml of vodka i’ll start the clock now.

I wish I would have come sooner. Wish you started with a higher PO4 Level. Maybe Like 0.2 ppm. That way if it drops hard we’ll know how much.

*Edit*
My bad I read that wrong. I thought I saw .05 ppm. Carry on!

 

[sixty_reefer]

I wish I would have come sooner. Wish you started with a higher PO4 Level. Maybe Like 0.2 ppm. That way if it drops hard we’ll know how much.

I’ve started at 0.3 ppm it already shown a hard drop in the first 10 hours as this morning was in between 0.05 and 0.1 ppm

I’ve dose 2.5ml last night of a solution that will increase phosphates by 0.01 on 100 litres per ml. that would increase my phosphates by 0.25 in this experiment tank that is 10 litres, plus I had 0.05 or 0.1 from the tank water already, this makes the starting point of 0.3 ppm credible.

I would imagine that a drop in phosphates of 0.2 in 10 hours is a significant number in our hobby

 

[Dan_P]

This IMHO - is incorrect. Alcohols have an inhibitory effect on bacteria

Phew! Good thing no one tries to carbon dose with alcohol.

 

[Reefahholic]

Phosphates are sitting around 0.3 and added 2ml of vodka i’ll start the clock now.

So you will be starting at 0.3 ppm and not 0.5 ppm. Noted!

 

[Reefahholic]

I'm going to make a silly prediction.
Edit: At either 24 or 48 hours I think the Nitrate test will be higher than the previous day.

Why?

 

[sixty_reefer]

So you will be starting at 0.3 ppm and not 0.5 ppm. Noted!

The starting point is 0.3 the test has been running since last night. I will be finishing work soon and will do another test.

 

[sixty_reefer]

Why?

This is what would happen if you dosed glucose in a tank without anoxic areas for denitrification to happen, I would imagine

this is one of the reasons the tank is bare, there’s no way anyone can say that denitrifying bacteria is removing the nutrients or interfering with the results

 

[sixty_reefer]

@Billldg @Peace River is it possible to move this thread to the research part of the forum please?
The results of this test may confuse the untrained eye and I wouldn’t want to anyone to try and induce a bloom on purpose in a reef tank as that’s really dangerous am using a dedicated tank to find results that could be beneficial to some bacteria behaviour I would never do this in a live reef tank.

 

[MnFish1]

This is the visual side by side between last night and this morning for nitrates and phosphates

Nitrates at 0 hours

nitrates at 10 hours

phosphates at 0 hours

phosphates at 10 hours

I might be hallucinating - but I do not see much if any difference in the PO4 or the nitrates - the lighting is, though, totally different? what qm I missing?

 

[sixty_reefer]

I might be hallucinating - but I do not see much if any difference in the PO4 or the nitrates - the lighting is, though, totally different? what qm I missing?

There is a difference although is always hard to photograph different shades of the same colour, I’m hoping that by the time I get home the photographic colour difference would be indisputable.

 

[sixty_reefer]

@Billldg @Peace River is it possible to move this thread to the research part of the forum please?
The results of this test may confuse the untrained eye and I wouldn’t want to anyone to try and induce a bloom on purpose in a reef tank as that’s really dangerous am using a dedicated tank to find results that could be beneficial to some bacteria behaviour I would never do this in a live reef tank.

Thank you

 

[MnFish1]

Phew! Good thing no one tries to carbon dose with alcohol.

Correct people do. It depends on the dose. Obviously

ADDENDUM/EDIT: This is what I originally posted - you only took one small sentence from what I said: "This IMHO - is incorrect. Alcohols have an inhibitory effect on bacteria - whereas - sugars (glucose) - do not (except in very high concentrations - AKA Honey, etc). Though - I will say - that the concentration of alcohol in this test - is extremely small - and likely will not have a negative effect. BUT - a glucose solution - would be far more (IMHO) - likely to provide a bloom - than vodka."

 

[Reefahholic]

I’ve started at 0.3 ppm it already shown a hard drop in the first 10 hours as this morning was in between 0.05 and 0.1 ppm

I’ve dose 2.5ml last night of a solution that will increase phosphates by 0.01 on 100 litres per ml. that would increase my phosphates by 0.25 in this experiment tank that is 10 litres, plus I had 0.05 or 0.1 from the tank water already, this makes the starting point of 0.3 ppm credible.

I would imagine that a drop in phosphates of 0.2 in 10 hours is a significant number in our hobby

A drop of 0.2 ppm in 10 hrs would cause most Acropora to RTN or STN. That’s a huge drop.