Bacteria ratios, putting a end to it!

[sixty_reefer]

As some of you may know already, I have been discussing extensively on bacterial ratios and the effects on po4.
today I decided that the subject it’s getting a bit tiring to me, so am going to do what is logical

I’ve pulled my testing tank from the garage and will put a end to the discussion trough testing.

Main goal here is:

Does carbon dosing reduces phosphates and if it does what’s the ratio?

for testing:

10 litres tank water (2.6 gallons)
Phosphates will aim at 0.5 ppm
Nitrates will aim at 20ppm
Carbon source will be vodka 1ml

The reason I am going for 1ml vodka in 10 litres of water is to try and create a bloom, this should create some reliable test results in less than 24hours.


anyone got any opinions or objections on the way the test is going to be carried out before I start I don’t use Hanna for po4 testing although I am happy for others that have a Hanna to replicate the test?

edit:
The display tank is 100 litres and it has a 2ml vodka dosing daily

 

[Lost in the Sauce]

I have no hand to lend in the testing but look forward to your findings whether they support your hypothesis or not.

 

[Lavey29]

Please dont waste the Grey Goose

 

[sixty_reefer]

I have no hand to lend in the testing but look forward to your findings whether they support your hypothesis or not.

I got to a point that in tank experience they do drop just after the phosphates bound to the substrate and rock are depleted, I think this is something I need to know whatever way it goes.

 

[Pkunk35]

Will you be skimming?

 

[sixty_reefer]

Please dont waste the Grey Goose

1ml won’t even start a party :)

 

[sixty_reefer]

Will you be skimming?

No, just tank water to eliminate any possible variables.

 

[sixty_reefer]

It’s up and running, it will also be lit 24/7

nitrates sitting at 20ppm just adjusting the phosphates. Maybe one hour until vodka is added. If there is any opposition to the method now is the time :)

 

[sixty_reefer]

@MnFish1 @Dan_P do you guys see any issues that I may be missing for this test?

 

[sixty_reefer]

Phosphates are sitting around 0.3 and added 2ml of vodka i’ll start the clock now.

 

[Dan_P]

@MnFish1 @Dan_P do you guys see any issues that I may be missing for this test?

If growing bacteria is the object, the illumination is not necessary. Algae growth could confuse things but maybe not for a 24 hour experiment.

If vodka does not provide the growth you need to consume nitrate and phosphate, glucose might. Since you want to demonstrate the ratio of N : P consumed, the carbon source does not seem important.

How much organic nitrogen does your aquarium water contain? This might throw off the N : P consumption ratio.

The lag period or adjustment time for bacteria to adapt to a new carbon source might be longer than 24 hours. Might need to run the experiment longer than 24 hours.

I wonder if @taricha did this experiment in a test tube? Might be interesting to compare nutrient consumption data.

 

[taricha]

I'm going to make a silly prediction.
Edit: At either 24 or 48 hours I think the Nitrate test will be higher than the previous day.
:p

 

[sixty_reefer]

If growing bacteria is the object, the illumination is not necessary. Algae growth could confuse things but maybe not for a 24 hour experiment. If vodka does not provide the growth you need to consume nitrate and phosphate, glucose might. Since you want to demonstrate the ratio of N : P consumed, the carbon source does not seem important.
How much organic nitrogen does your aquarium water contain? This might throw off the N : P consumption ratio.

i haven’t done a N-Doc for this test the main goal here is to illustrate that carbon dosing will reduce phosphates, I’m trying to induce a bloom to promote a lot of growth as this is how phosphates are reduced in this method. Determining a ratio would be very difficult without a laboratory equipment

The lag period or adjustment time for bacteria to adapt to a new carbon source might be longer than 24 hours. Might need to run the experiment longer than 24 hours.

the bacteria that assimilate phosphates reproduce very quickly, I may have results before the 24h period as long as the bloom occurs. I am also going away for the weekend so I only got one shot at this for now.

I wonder if @taricha did this experiment in a test tube? Might be interesting to compare nutrient consumption data.

 

[Jedi1199]

As some of you may know already, I have been discussing extensively on bacterial ratios and the effects on po4.
today I decided that the subject it’s getting a bit tiring to me, so am going to do what is logical

I’ve pulled my testing tank from the garage and will put a end to the discussion trough testing.

Main goal here is:

Does carbon dosing reduces phosphates and if it does what’s the ratio?

for testing:

10 litres tank water (2.6 gallons)
Phosphates will aim at 0.5 ppm
Nitrates will aim at 20ppm
Carbon source will be vodka 1ml

The reason I am going for 1ml vodka in 10 litres of water is to try and create a bloom, this should create some reliable test results in less than 24hours.


anyone got any opinions or objections on the way the test is going to be carried out before I start I don’t use Hanna for po4 testing although I am happy for others that have a Hanna to replicate the test?

edit:
The display tank is 100 litres and it has a 2ml vodka dosing daily

I love experiments!! Following along here... BTW, I love the artistic display with the B&W photo... lol

 

[sixty_reefer]

I'm going to make a silly prediction. 24 hours later, I think the Nitrate test will be higher than it started.
:p

I tough that would only happen if glucose was used? I don’t know what the results will be yet although I may mess this up :p

 

[sixty_reefer]

I love experiments!! Following along here... BTW, I love the artistic display with the B&W photo... lol

I tough might as well, every one knows how this little experimental tanks look like :)

 

[MnFish1]

@MnFish1 @Dan_P do you guys see any issues that I may be missing for this test?

The reason I am going for 1ml vodka in 10 litres of water is to try and create a bloom, this should create some reliable test results in less than 24hours.

It’s up and running, it will also be lit 24/7

nitrates sitting at 20ppm just adjusting the phosphates. Maybe one hour until vodka is added. If there is any opposition to the method now is the time :)

1. My eyes say your nitrates are higher than 20 - but it might be the lighting
2. I dont understand - so what if you create a bloom with vodka. AND - If you don't what does it mean?
3. Bacteria grow on a lot of 'chemicals' so - Lets say you don't have a bloom - what are you intending for that to mean?
4. There is no control. (positive or negative)
5. As others have alluded to - it may not reflect what happens in a tank - with no skimmer, etc - and what filtration are you using? - Or is is just flow from the powerhead.

Most importantly - it would be great if you would post this in the 'Experiments' section on R2R. As compared to the general discussion

I'm going to make a silly prediction.
Edit: At either 24 or 48 hours I think the Nitrate test will be higher than the previous day.
:p

I will make a sillier prediction - the test method used - will not allow for any determination of this.

 

[MnFish1]

If growing bacteria is the object, the illumination is not necessary. Algae growth could confuse things but maybe not for a 24 hour experiment.

If vodka does not provide the growth you need to consume nitrate and phosphate, glucose might. Since you want to demonstrate the ratio of N : P consumed, the carbon source does not seem important.

How much organic nitrogen does your aquarium water contain? This might throw off the N : P consumption ratio.

The lag period or adjustment time for bacteria to adapt to a new carbon source might be longer than 24 hours. Might need to run the experiment longer than 24 hours.

I wonder if @taricha did this experiment in a test tube? Might be interesting to compare nutrient consumption data.

This IMHO - is incorrect. Alcohols have an inhibitory effect on bacteria - whereas - sugars (glucose) - do not (except in very high concentrations - AKA Honey, etc). Though - I will say - that the concentration of alcohol in this test - is extremely small - and likely will not have a negative effect. BUT - a glucose solution - would be far more (IMHO) - likely to provide a bloom - than vodka.

So - (and @sixty_reefer ) I'm not suggesting this - but you asked for comments - one way to do this is -

1 tank with water and vodka, 1 tank with water and a carbon equivalent of glucose, and one with nothing.

 

[sixty_reefer]

1. My eyes say your nitrates are higher than 20 - but it might be the lighting

they are in between may 30ppm, I tough I may not make a difference as the test is mainly on the phosphates side that by colour is more o 0.3 than a 0.2 although again I think it may not influence the end result of goes well

2. I dont understand - so what if you create a bloom with vodka. AND - If you don't what does it mean?

the bloom is just to create a lot of bacteria in a short period of time to illustrate the end result that would take weeks in a controlled way to do in a tank. For phosphates to be depleted in this method it will depend on the number of bacteria available

3. Bacteria grow on a lot of 'chemicals' so - Lets say you don't have a bloom - what are you intending for that to mean?

the one am looking for just needs C N P to thrive

4. There is no control. (positive or negative)

It was a last minute though, although you are correct a control would off been ideal

5. As others have alluded to - it may not reflect what happens in a tank - with no skimmer, etc - and what filtration are you using? - Or is is just flow from the powerhead.

for this test a protein skimmer would actually work agains the experience as it would of remove the pelagic bacteria from the water column

Most importantly - it would be great if you would post this in the 'Experiments' section on R2R. As compared to the general discussion

I can’t seem to find it on my phone for some reason, if a mood sees this thread I would be very grateful if the move could be made.

I will make a sillier prediction - the test method used - will not allow for any determination of this.

you all got me doubting myself now with those predictions :p

 

[sixty_reefer]

This IMHO - is incorrect. Alcohols have an inhibitory effect on bacteria - whereas - sugars (glucose) - do not (except in very high concentrations - AKA Honey, etc). Though - I will say - that the concentration of alcohol in this test - is extremely small - and likely will not have a negative effect. BUT - a glucose solution - would be far more (IMHO) - likely to provide a bloom - than vodka.

So - (and @sixty_reefer ) I'm not suggesting this - but you asked for comments - one way to do this is -

1 tank with water and vodka, 1 tank with water and a carbon equivalent of glucose, and one with nothing.

I’ve increased the vodka concentration to 5ml total to increase the chances of a bloom. This would be the equivalent to dose 50ml of vodka in a 26 gallon.

I think depending on the results tomorrow we could look at other options that would be interesting to accomplish, I’ve been trying to get an excuse to look at dinoflagellates and Cyanobacteria also, maybe this is the time to do it after this experiments. Have you finished your experience yet? Your set up is way better than mine :)