Anybody catch the BRS video of Ryan's tank this week? He had a full analysis of the bacteria in his new 360 done by biometrics company. Very interesting! Seems sand is alot more important than we thought.
Bacteria: What are your thoughts on adding "bacteria" to your reef tank?
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Mywifeisgunnakillme
Valuable Member
i agree lots of tanks won't see any benefit to dosing bacteria, especially established pretty tanks with no problems... it is a waste of money, perhaps, for them.
But, on this forum and in the hobby in general, a huge percentage of hobbiest just started within a year or two (the number keeping tanks beyond that is dismal?) ...
I think those tanks often have problems related to lack of the right bacterial composition in the tank and that does create algae problems. It's not as simple as is there is bacteria in the tank--obviously there is--the question is is the bacteria in there helpful or not and could other bacteria populations be more helpful?
These supplements boost helpful bacteria numbers to help new tanks mature--there is no doubt there? That's not waste of money if you ask me... Not everyone has live rock... Many need to seed there tanks with the helpful bacteria... What is naturally present on dry rock is likely not as helpful.
Anyway, anecdotally, dosing bacteria i think was a big part of beating a bad dino outbreak relatively quickly for me... Adding more corals (with bacteria on them) that suck up nutrients and live phyto, and pods, macro algae, i think is just as important for those with problems--the more life in the tank the more stable it is .... each one of those things can do its part out competing nuisance algae...
No harm in experimenting at all. If there is some combo of bac that will increase dino wins above 30% current standards for any approach the hobby needs it. Agreed the trend towards dry rock starts validates experimenting with diversity and hopefully much easier uglies phasing for dry setups, it gets mighty rough
I use seachem stability with every water change for almost 3 years now. I was told by the LFS to add it. I guess I never really thought about if I needed to continue doing it. I started with a bottle of turbo start. I've enjoyed reading everyone's experiences with bacteria additions. I have a pretty stable reef doesn't seem to bother the corals that I've noticed. They are growing nicely.
Mywifeisgunnakillme
Valuable Member
Continued dosing in my opinion does not hurt and very well may help.
When i was in school to be a beer brewer, i remember a micro biology class. It showed a yeast cell magnified many many times so you could see the surface of the cell-- the cell kind of looked like a photo of some odd planet in outer space it was blown up so big in the picture.
The PHD teaching the class pointed out that when yeast cells divide--the point where they divide is scarred. You can literally see the scar on the surface of the yeast cell if you magnify the cell enough. It looks like pimple of sorts. A yeast cell cannot divide where it is scarred and has previously divided.
I googled yeast cell dividing and this picture was one thing that showed up--this pic reminds me of the pic the professor showed us in class:
The PHD made the practical point that brewers cannot keep reusing the same yeast generation after generation because after time the cells divide so many times that the surface of the cells are just covered in scars--and the cells can literally no longer physically divide. This leads to mutations or decreasing populations or decreased vitality.
The PHD recommended--and it very common practice--to start with new yeast cultures ever few batches of beer because of this; the old yeast cells that have divided too many times and lack vitality (ability to function well)... they may live (viability) but perform poorly especially when it comes to reproducing. Old yeast bad--young yeast good was the point. Commercial beer operations keep slants or agars of new yeast for this very reason.
Anyway, as an analogy, by dosing new bacteria cultures (yeast and bacteria are both single cell organisms that reproduce by dividing)--it makes sense to me that, based on the above, this would/could be help to maintain a healthy bacteria population with increased vitality (ability to perform its life functions well).
Who knows--maybe "old tank syndrome" is partially caused by a lack of new bacteria additions; the bacteria in the tank is so in-bred and scarred that it cannot reproduce effectively anymore nor do its functions well...
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ectoaesthetics
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I think it is a great way to start a tank if you are starting with dry rock. However it is my belief -and I am fairly alone in this- that adding it to an established tank will only serve to upset the bacterial plaques in your tank. We don’t know enough about the single strains and their significance much less their impact and interactions within the microbial plaques... which is arguably the most important and most complex thing in our tanks. I favor giving it as much diversity as you can in the beginning. After that I am willing to introduce small quantities of something new but not enough to fix a problem or restructure my plaques.
LittleFidel
Community Member
Hmmm. I disagree. I see it in the same light as humans taking vitamins. If you “overdose” there is little harm because your body will use what it needs and excrete the rest. If you overdose bacteria in a bottle, your reef will use what it needs and the rest becomes waste. No harm, no foul, especially if you follow the manufacturers dosing (there will probably be very little excess leftover to die off or cause imbalance problems as a result).
UkiahTheTurtle
Valuable Member
I add algae eating bacteria from vibrant and I used to add nitifieing bacteria when my tank was getting started. What I noticed was that nitrifying bacteria helps cycle the tank and the vibrant algae eating bacteria helps keep the tank looking nice
Here is the cause and fix of old tank syndrome, all in one thread below
mechanism at work: export not dosing
reef pro biotics are cash taking machines folks don't lose your cash. bottle bac is legit for speed cycling though, but not needed after that. not even as a refresher, they want us to think refre$her for sure
mechanism at work: export not dosing
reef pro biotics are cash taking machines folks don't lose your cash. bottle bac is legit for speed cycling though, but not needed after that. not even as a refresher, they want us to think refre$her for sure
Old tank syndrome is vanquished in reefing now
the cause of old tank syndrome is compounding whole waste particles that blanket the interstitial sand grain zones and plug up the channels in live rocks- in some cases it's sheer overgrowth allowed from various invasions that plugs up the surface area on live rock combined with a thin veneer of...
www.reef2reef.com
I know that's not the only article on old tank syndrome.
its just the only live time one where anyone with an old tank syndroming can post for help right now and its fixed by Monday. its a rather active proof thread...the rest of the searchable Ots articles are pages of type and no actual live time reef tank work, that's disappointing. I want to see some old tank syndrome turnaround work in any article written about OTS.
Belgian Anthias
Valuable Member
What is in the bottle?
Put a fresh living clamp or mussel in the tank! A huge diversity of millions of live bacteria!
After cycling the tank all bacteria needed for remineralization will be present. If not, the tank can not complete its first cycle. Once cycled one may condition the tank for what is coming. Adding some active natural waterwater or from an established tank, a bit of scrapings, it will be sufficient to seed the tank. Everything else is introduced with the animals , they contain all bacteria needed for their survival. Healthy Corals contain all bacteria needed, as does any animal one will introduce. What would be in the bottle what is needed and not already present?
Not enough competition for the coral holobiont?
Probiotics for your tank! Is is your money!
What is in the bottle? ref: MB CMF De Haes 2017-2019
Put a fresh living clamp or mussel in the tank! A huge diversity of millions of live bacteria!
After cycling the tank all bacteria needed for remineralization will be present. If not, the tank can not complete its first cycle. Once cycled one may condition the tank for what is coming. Adding some active natural waterwater or from an established tank, a bit of scrapings, it will be sufficient to seed the tank. Everything else is introduced with the animals , they contain all bacteria needed for their survival. Healthy Corals contain all bacteria needed, as does any animal one will introduce. What would be in the bottle what is needed and not already present?
Not enough competition for the coral holobiont?
Probiotics for your tank! Is is your money!
What is in the bottle? ref: MB CMF De Haes 2017-2019
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I’d support that in my case Dinos seemed to dwindle after ATM colony and Dr Tim’s Waste Away
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There is a fair bit of research into this. And a lot of anecdote. But - if you add new bacteria to an 'established tank' - one of 2 things will happen either the new bacteria will not find a niche (i.e. the old bacteria will outcompete them) - or the new bacteria will become dominant. I do not know of any evidence (at all) that adding bacteria, mud, slime, etc to an established tank increases diversity - long-term.
areiser
New Member
WHEN YOU CYCLE WITH DR. TIMS, DOES YOUR AMMONIA EVER GO TO ZERO, AND IF SO AT WHAT STAGE, WHEN DO THE NITRITES START TO DROP? i AM CYCLING A TANK AND AMMONIA (SALIFERT TEST) APPEARS TO HAVE MOVED INTO THE SAFE ZONE, NITIRITES ARE STILL HIGH (SALIFERT TEST) , AND I AM PICKING UP HIGH NITRATE LEVELS IN MY TEST (HANNA CHECKER). IM WONDERING IF I SHOULD ADD MORE AMMONIA TO MOVE THINGS ALONG, BUT I'M UNSURE
Gogol_frag
Active Member
There has been a lot of discussion regarding adding certain types of bacteria to your reef tank and today I thought we might talk about it some more!
1. Do you add any type of bacteria to your reef tank and if so what and why?
2. What changes have you noticed in your reef tank from these additions?
image via @Abood
There has been a lot of discussion regarding adding certain types of bacteria to your reef tank and today I thought we might talk about it some more!
1. Do you add any type of bacteria to your reef tank and if so what and why?
2. What changes have you noticed in your reef tank from these additions?
image via @Abood
My tank's fairly new (3-weeks). So, it is a cocktail of bacteria right now. The ones that I have used so far are:There has been a lot of discussion regarding adding certain types of bacteria to your reef tank and today I thought we might talk about it some more!
1. Do you add any type of bacteria to your reef tank and if so what and why?
2. What changes have you noticed in your reef tank from these additions?
image via @Abood
- Dr. Tim's One and Only (used to marinate the Dry Rock and Brightwell Biocubes prior to build in a 30 Gallon Brute for 4 weeks)
- Brightwell Microbacter7 (to hasten cycling) - completed within 7 days after build.
- Prodibio BioClean (bacteria) with Bioptim ( food the BioClean bacteria) - being tested for long-term use.
The bacteria that I will be starting on (ordered but not received yet)
- ARC Reef's Coraline Algae Products - Pink Fusion and Purple Helix (sold by Algae Barn) - used to develop Coraline Algae.
- Hydrospace's Purple NonSulphur Bacteria products - ProBio, Substrate Sauce (competes with Cyano) and Yello Sno (food for the above two bacteria) - sold by AgaeBarn. - primarily for fighting Ugly Phase.
Changes noticed so far:
- Only three hours of bacteria bloom, once, at the very beginning of build.
- Nitrogen cycling completed within one week after stress testing the system for 5-times during the week by pushing Ammonia levels to Toxic and observing the bacteria bringing it back to Safe within 12 to 18 hours - as reported by Seachem Ammonia Badge.
- ORP levels between 230-240 irrespective of skimmer on/off.
- Ammonia 0, and Nitrate around 5 ppm, irrespective of skimmer on or off.
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monkeyCmonkeyDo
7500 Club Member
No
I simply dont believe it. Its that simple.
I dont believe i need to buy a bottle of anything or put fish through high amnoina levels to cycle and start a sw aquarium.
Do fish exp this. Yes they do. With and without the bottle bacteria.
D
I simply dont believe it. Its that simple.
I dont believe i need to buy a bottle of anything or put fish through high amnoina levels to cycle and start a sw aquarium.
Do fish exp this. Yes they do. With and without the bottle bacteria.
D
Gogol_frag
Active Member
Hahahahaha areiser ... totally loving the all-caps post
I am not knowledgeable enough to prescribe a solution to your particular problem, but I can share my recent (frankly ongoing) personal experience with Nitrogen Cycle. Maybe you can excerpt and apply as you see fit.
I used Dr. Tim's, during my prebuild to jumpstart the Dry Rock and Brightwell Bio Cubes (at which time Nitrates were 20ppm, Nitrite was 0, Ammonia was 5ppm). This phase was 4-weeks for me. I dosed the prebuild salt water with a Phytoplankton blend to create rotting organic matter with the expectation of creating Ammonia.
Post-build - during the initial Nitrogen cycle, i used 6 caps of Microbacter7 for a 170 gallon tank, daily - broken into two 3 cap doses each. I also kept the water temperature at 85 degrees and Salinity at 20ppt. During the Nitrogen Cycle, I dosed Dr Tim's Ammonia until the water became Toxic and observed if the bacteria were able bring it back to Safe. They were able to do so within 12-18 hours. This happened for 5 times, beyond which my Ammonia bottle got completely consumed. So I couldn't further stress-test. This phase lasted for 1 week.
My nitrates are at 5ppm and Ammonia at 0, now, 2 weeks after the completion of my stress-tests. My temperature is now maintained at between 78-79 degree F, and salinity at 35ppt. I would like Nitrates at around 1-2 ppm. My tank receives a cocktail of planktons with the expectation of creating Ammonia via rotting.
Belgian Anthias
Valuable Member
What is in the bottle?
Only ammonia?
Cycling a tank is bringing in organics and recycle them. The first cycle, light will bring in the energy to transform CO2 into organic carbon, the tank walls will turn brownish. This is done by photo-autotrophs. All building materials present in the salt mix will be used up. What makes a saltmix special for corals if everything us used for cycling the tank?
Does your saltmix contain what is needed ? Does it contain enough phosphorus and nitrogen and everything else to support the growth needed?
When everything is used up the brownisch will disappear, heterotrophs will make use off the dying cells to retrieve their carbon, part is used for growth, most is used to produce energy; everything is released as CO2. The carbon cycle is completed. But, most of the building materials are not reused yet as the carbon needed was transformed into CO2 for producing energy. Ammonia left over, which may become toxic, is then used to produce safely stored usable nitrogen, Nitrate. The bacteria and archaea doing this, the nitrifiers are slow growers as are most auto-trophs, able to use CO2 as their carbon source. Then this safely stored nitrogen is used as the nitrogen source for slower photo -autotrophic growth , algae, cyano, phytho, which will use up all the building materials left over after complete remineralization and will reintroduce the CO2 released by the heterotrophs into organics, usable by these heterotrophs. The cycles are closed. Between both reducers and producers the balance must be found, called live.
The tank is cycled but not conditioned .
Nitrifiers , bacteria and archaea, are slow growers. To install a stable carrying capacity those nitrifiers will become part of a diverse community, a biofilm, which contains a huge diversity of all kind of bacteria in which the nitrifiers have to play their important role. They remove the toxic ammonia which is left over after complete remineralization of the biowaste and DOC produced. In such a nitrifying biofilm +- 15% of the nitrate produced is released as N2, nitrogen gas. In a closed system this nitrogen has to be replaced, otherwise a balance between producers and reducers is not possible. This can be managed by managing the C:N ratio ( protein content) of the food source.
All the above is without the use of a skimmer!
To condition a tank after cycling one needs more as just ammonia! Introducing free ammonia, not produced by remineralization processes, does not help for installing a balanced aerobic biofilm.
Depending of the size of the new tank, bring in a live mussel and you will have introduced a huge diversity of millions of bacteria, also those needed if the mussel dies. As the tank yet does not contain what is needed to keep it alive, feeding it will bring in everything needed to condition the tank. It is just an example of many other options .
Installing an autotrophic carrying capacity,based on nitrificaton, takes weeks and can not be delivered in a bottle.
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Gogol_frag
Active Member
Thank you for that detailed post Belgian_Anthias. Will i be correct to paraphrase the post into saying the following:
- give your tank 5-8 weeks for the preferred bacteria to get established
- Post Ammonia-reduction by bacteria, add light and food as sources of energy
- Introduce inexpensive tankmates to observe survivalibity in the reef that you have newly-created
- Unless the provider of the bottle doesn't explicitly mention the contents of the product (Brightwell is often guilty of this), do not purchase/add.
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