Bacterial Driven System: A Recipe for Success.

[Forty-Two]

Regarding the dosing all at once - my experience is I can see a dip in my P03 and N03 when I dose. Do you not see a 'shock' to the system with putting the dosage in all at once?

I was at 1.9ml a day 2-3 times a day (which is a tiny amount) - but even then I could see fluctations sometimes driving my P04 to 0

 

[Timfish]

Well, as the research I've read has put the blame of reef degradation to excess labile DOC aka Carbon Dosing, I certainly question the wisdom of adding any labile DOC to a system. Excess labile DOC can have acute effects on corals like the necrosis you mentioned but unfortunately it can also have chronic effects that may take years to eventually cause issues. And I gotta point out to have the correct Redfield ratio you need to be including particulate and organic forms of carbon, nitrogen and phosphorus. Just measuring inorganic forms of these three will certainly give a wrong ratio. And how old is the system you posted pictures of in your OP?

You do have spectacular looking corals, unfortunately we can't use colorful corals as an indicator of healthy corals. Neither can we use growth. So how are you determining your corals are healthy?

We know cryptic sponges are processing labile DOC 1000X times faster than the bacterioplankton in the water. How are you determining what's being processed by sponges and what's being processed by bacteria? Sponges also process the various forms of labile DOC differently and some can form feedback loops with algae detrimental to corals. How are you confirming the resultant compounds the sponges in your system are benefitting corals and are not detrimantal to them?


For an excellent introduction to the conflicting roles of DOC in reef ssytems I highly recommend Forest ROhwer's "Coral Reefs in the Microbial Seas" This video compliments Rohwer's book of the same title (Paper back is ~$20, Kindle is ~$10), both deal with the conflicting roles of the different types of DOC in reef ecosystems. While there is overlap bewteen his book and the video both have information not covered by the other and together give a broader view of the complex relationships found in reef ecosystems


SOme additional videos by researchers looking at microbes and sponges:

Changing Seas - Mysterious Microbes


Nitrogen cycling in hte coral holobiont


BActeria and Sponges


Maintenance of Coral Reef Health (refferences at the end)



For the issues of color being indicators of stress see post #59 in this thread:

QUESTION OF THE DAY - Do colorful corals mean you have stressed corals?

I don' think so. If they were so stressed out they wouldn't grow well so I think that when we have good color and good growth, they are probably thriving. I think our lights don't actually mimic sunlight and that we now provide the right spectrum to support colorful corals, but not full...

www.reef2reef.com

 

[Dbichler]

So essentially you could diy nopox and dose phosphate and get the same balance.

 

[SunnyX]

Sunny, apologies for going a little off topic, but I’m curious about what you “do” feed your fish. You said only flakes and pellets. They look really healthy and happy. Guess that is part of the nutrient in question. Can you tell us which ones you prefer?

Jetson

Hello,

The food is completely pertinent to the conversation. I feed Formula One Flakes and Spectrum Brand pellets.

Recently, I have started feeding some frozen, LRS Reef Frenzy, but it constitutes perhaps 20% of all the food fed. My fish love it and corals are looking nice and healthy so I will continue feeding it.

-Sonny

 

[Chortanator]

Hello,

This product sounds like the DIY a coral Snow I wrote about. you don’t specifically have to use the Tropic Marin version. I am not sponsored by anyone so feel free to use what you’d like. There are many DIY formulas out there, including plain old vodka. You‘ll just need to take extra care to feed enough food into the system so that nutrients do not bottom out.

Here is a helpful article: http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2008-08/nftt/index.php

Thanks for the info! I followed your DIY Coral Snow recipe and I'm going to be using it in about an hour. I took out my GFO yesterday and my phosphates went from .05 to .5 so I'm trying to lower them, but my nitrates have been bottomed out for a few weeks despite increasing my feedings, and even feeding foods like fresh salmon. I tested it now and my nitrates are 2.5. What can I supplement to up my nitrates?

 

[SunnyX]

Well, as the research I've read has put the blame of reef degradation to excess labile DOC aka Carbon Dosing, I certainly question the wisdom of adding any labile DOC to a system. Excess labile DOC can have acute effects on corals like the necrosis you mentioned but unfortunately it can also have chronic effects that may take years to eventually cause issues. And I gotta point out to have the correct Redfield ratio you need to be including particulate and organic forms of carbon, nitrogen and phosphorus. Just measuring inorganic forms of these three will certainly give a wrong ratio. And how old is the system you posted pictures of in your OP?

You do have spectacular looking corals, unfortunately we can't use colorful corals as an indicator of healthy corals. Neither can we use growth. So how are you determining your corals are healthy?

We know cryptic sponges are processing labile DOC 1000X times faster than the bacterioplankton in the water. How are you determining what's being processed by sponges and what's being processed by bacteria? Sponges also process the various forms of labile DOC differently and some can form feedback loops with algae detrimental to corals. How are you confirming the resultant compounds the sponges in your system are benefitting corals and are not detrimantal to them?


For an excellent introduction to the conflicting roles of DOC in reef ssytems I highly recommend Forest ROhwer's "Coral Reefs in the Microbial Seas" This video compliments Rohwer's book of the same title (Paper back is ~$20, Kindle is ~$10), both deal with the conflicting roles of the different types of DOC in reef ecosystems. While there is overlap bewteen his book and the video both have information not covered by the other and together give a broader view of the complex relationships found in reef ecosystems


SOme additional videos by researchers looking at microbes and sponges:

Changing Seas - Mysterious Microbes


Nitrogen cycling in hte coral holobiont


BActeria and Sponges


Maintenance of Coral Reef Health (refferences at the end)



For the issues of color being indicators of stress see post #59 in this thread:

QUESTION OF THE DAY - Do colorful corals mean you have stressed corals?

I don' think so. If they were so stressed out they wouldn't grow well so I think that when we have good color and good growth, they are probably thriving. I think our lights don't actually mimic sunlight and that we now provide the right spectrum to support colorful corals, but not full...

www.reef2reef.com

Well, these are questions that I am unqualified to answer as I am not a scientist, nor do I care or believe its necessary to delve that deeply as to breakdown a coral and view it under a microscope. I cannot tell you what sponges are processing and if the corals are actually healthy. I look for growth, color and polyp extension. If all three are present I am happy and can deem the coral to be healthy.

What I can tell you though is I did have a 10 year period (2004-2014) in which corals were carbon dosed with great results. I cant recall EVER losing an SPS coral to necrosis, and there are quite literally thousands upon thousands of aquariums in the USA that have corals that originated from my carbon dosed systems. The Pro Corals Rainbow coral being one of the many that was released. There is scantly an SPS aquarium out there that does not have that coral. Each aquarium I maintained was setup for a period of about three years but the majority of the rockwork and corals remained the same, moving from system to system.

During this same time period I was growing and selling corals commercially. I had no issues growing corals, maintaining color and couldn't stock the website fast enough to meet demand.

People are free to choose how they maintain their aquariums. 17 years ago people laughed when I told them I was going to grow a full blown SPS system under T5's. They criticized me when I started recommending that others do the same.

The science you are referencing may (or may not) be sound, but I will differ to my own experiences. My track record and body of evidence speaks for itself.

 

[SunnyX]

Regarding the dosing all at once - my experience is I can see a dip in my P03 and N03 when I dose. Do you not see a 'shock' to the system with putting the dosage in all at once?

I was at 1.9ml a day 2-3 times a day (which is a tiny amount) - but even then I could see fluctations sometimes driving my P04 to 0

Hello,

I have not noticed any fluctuations, but then again I do not test for nutrients unless something is off. The only parameters I keep track of are ALK, Ph, SG and temperature. If these are all in line I leave everything else alone. The worst thing you can do i chase numbers.

Are you dosing the NP-Bacto balance? I also feed my fish directly after dosing.

 

[livinlifeinBKK]

Well, these are questions that I am unqualified to answer as I am not a scientist, nor do I care or believe its necessary to delve that deeply as to breakdown a coral and view it under a microscope. I cannot tell you what sponges are processing and if the corals are actually healthy. I look for growth, color and polyp extension. If all three are present I am happy and can deem the coral to be healthy.

What I can tell you though is I did have a 10 year period (2004-2014) in which corals were carbon dosed with great results. I cant recall EVER losing an SPS coral to necrosis, and there are quite literally thousands upon thousands of aquariums in the USA that have corals that originated from my carbon dosed systems. The Pro Corals Rainbow coral being one of the many that was released. There is scantly an SPS aquarium out there that does not have that coral. Each aquarium I maintained was setup for a period of about three years but the majority of the rockwork and corals remained the same, moving from system to system.

During this same time period I was growing and selling corals commercially. I had no issues growing corals, maintaining color and couldn't stock the website fast enough to meet demand.

People are free to choose how they maintain their aquariums. 17 years ago people laughed when I told them I was going to grow a full blown SPS system under T5's. They criticized me when I started recommending that others do the same.

The science you are referencing may (or may not) be sound, but I will differ to my own experiences. My track record and body of evidence speaks for itself.

I agree with you 110%...choose the technique you're satisfied with that makes sense and follow it...the scientific findings are neverending but what works will continue to work.

 

[mindme]

Well, as the research I've read has put the blame of reef degradation to excess labile DOC aka Carbon Dosing, I certainly question the wisdom of adding any labile DOC to a system. Excess labile DOC can have acute effects on corals like the necrosis you mentioned but unfortunately it can also have chronic effects that may take years to eventually cause issues. And I gotta point out to have the correct Redfield ratio you need to be including particulate and organic forms of carbon, nitrogen and phosphorus. Just measuring inorganic forms of these three will certainly give a wrong ratio. And how old is the system you posted pictures of in your OP?

You do have spectacular looking corals, unfortunately we can't use colorful corals as an indicator of healthy corals. Neither can we use growth. So how are you determining your corals are healthy?

We know cryptic sponges are processing labile DOC 1000X times faster than the bacterioplankton in the water. How are you determining what's being processed by sponges and what's being processed by bacteria? Sponges also process the various forms of labile DOC differently and some can form feedback loops with algae detrimental to corals. How are you confirming the resultant compounds the sponges in your system are benefitting corals and are not detrimantal to them?


For an excellent introduction to the conflicting roles of DOC in reef ssytems I highly recommend Forest ROhwer's "Coral Reefs in the Microbial Seas" This video compliments Rohwer's book of the same title (Paper back is ~$20, Kindle is ~$10), both deal with the conflicting roles of the different types of DOC in reef ecosystems. While there is overlap bewteen his book and the video both have information not covered by the other and together give a broader view of the complex relationships found in reef ecosystems


SOme additional videos by researchers looking at microbes and sponges:

Changing Seas - Mysterious Microbes


Nitrogen cycling in hte coral holobiont


BActeria and Sponges


Maintenance of Coral Reef Health (refferences at the end)



For the issues of color being indicators of stress see post #59 in this thread:

QUESTION OF THE DAY - Do colorful corals mean you have stressed corals?

I don' think so. If they were so stressed out they wouldn't grow well so I think that when we have good color and good growth, they are probably thriving. I think our lights don't actually mimic sunlight and that we now provide the right spectrum to support colorful corals, but not full...

www.reef2reef.com

Do you just copy and paste this same thing constantly in threads?

 

[HBtank]

Great thread, simple and cheap is good, so rethinking coral nutrition in the context of carbon dosing is something I will be weighing heavily.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I agree with you 110%...choose the technique you're satisfied with that makes sense and follow it...the scientific findings are neverending but what works will continue to work.

While that methodology works much of the time, if you do not understand how or why something works (or dsoesn't), it is hard to know when it is appropriate and when it is inappropriate to extend the result to a different setting (i.e., a different aquarium or the same aquarium at a different point in time).

A perfect example is tap water.

Most people can probably use tap water in their reef aquarium, and some won't even notice a difference and some may even get a benefit.

Some, obviously, cannot use their tap water.

Some could have great success today, and a fail next month when the water company makes a change the user is unaware of.

If we did not understand why, it makes it hard to make recommendations about what is an appropriate husbandry decision.

 

[HBtank]

Well, these are questions that I am unqualified to answer as I am not a scientist, nor do I care or believe its necessary to delve that deeply as to breakdown a coral and view it under a microscope. I cannot tell you what sponges are processing and if the corals are actually healthy. I look for growth, color and polyp extension. If all three are present I am happy and can deem the coral to be healthy.

What I can tell you though is I did have a 10 year period (2004-2014) in which corals were carbon dosed with great results. I cant recall EVER losing an SPS coral to necrosis, and there are quite literally thousands upon thousands of aquariums in the USA that have corals that originated from my carbon dosed systems. The Pro Corals Rainbow coral being one of the many that was released. There is scantly an SPS aquarium out there that does not have that coral. Each aquarium I maintained was setup for a period of about three years but the majority of the rockwork and corals remained the same, moving from system to system.

During this same time period I was growing and selling corals commercially. I had no issues growing corals, maintaining color and couldn't stock the website fast enough to meet demand.

People are free to choose how they maintain their aquariums. 17 years ago people laughed when I told them I was going to grow a full blown SPS system under T5's. They criticized me when I started recommending that others do the same.

The science you are referencing may (or may not) be sound, but I will differ to my own experiences. My track record and body of evidence speaks for itself.

How time flies, I was in the T5 pioneer boat too, now I am seeing threads wondering if T5s will even be available in the future.

I am coming to the conclusion that I crashed my tank ~10 years ago by chasing low nutrient levels (and starving it) thinking I was doing the right thing. Finding a system that replicates NSW while also providing appropriate nutrition is not simple, which this method seems to do very well. So yeah... throwing carbon dosing out the window as a tool in our kit seems unwise.

 

[livinlifeinBKK]

While that methodology works much of the time, if you do not understand how or why something works (or dsoesn't), it is hard to know when it is appropriate and when it is inappropriate to extend the result to a different setting (i.e., a different aquarium or the same aquarium at a different point in time).

A perfect example is tap water.

Most people can probably use tap water in their reef aquarium, and some won't even notice a difference and some may even get a benefit.

Some, obviously, cannot use their tap water.

Some could have great success today, and a fail next month when the water company makes a change the user is unaware of.

If we did not understand why, it makes it hard to make recommendations about what is an appropriate husbandry decision.

I believe science is very important not only in this hobby but in life in general. However, a lot of people seem to get so deep into the science that they don't fully understand already, a lesson on a topic as intricate as the one I left my comment on seems like it may just confused them further. As I said, I love the science in this thread and understand it as others seem to do as well

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I believe science is very important not only in this hobby but in life in general. However, a lot of people seem to get so deep into the science that they don't fully understand already, a lesson on a topic as intricate as the one I left my comment on seems like it may just confused them further. As I said, I love the science in this thread and understand it as others seem to do as well

Sounds good. Happy reefing.

 

[livinlifeinBKK]

Sounds good. Happy reefing.

Sorry if my previous post conveyed something I didn't intend

 

[mindme]

While that methodology works much of the time, if you do not understand how or why something works (or dsoesn't), it is hard to know when it is appropriate and when it is inappropriate to extend the result to a different setting (i.e., a different aquarium or the same aquarium at a different point in time).

A perfect example is tap water.

Most people can probably use tap water in their reef aquarium, and some won't even notice a difference and some may even get a benefit.

Some, obviously, cannot use their tap water.

Some could have great success today, and a fail next month when the water company makes a change the user is unaware of.

If we did not understand why, it makes it hard to make recommendations about what is an appropriate husbandry decision.

Why are these same standards not used in reverse?

Where are the actual symptoms of a tank experiencing these issues?

What is the actual timeline a tank can expect before it has these issues?

Why is the element of elevated temperatures ignored? Which is what triggers the bleaching events in the oceans, and the studies I've seen mentioned are largely based around that.

None of that is ever answered. It's always "can" and "may" with a timeline that is never defined.

All of this in the face of people posting demonstrable success and results, which are dismissed as anecdotal.

 

[Dan_P]

While that methodology works much of the time, if you do not understand how or why something works (or dsoesn't), it is hard to know when it is appropriate and when it is inappropriate to extend the result to a different setting (i.e., a different aquarium or the same aquarium at a different point in time).

A perfect example is tap water.

Most people can probably use tap water in their reef aquarium, and some won't even notice a difference and some may even get a benefit.

Some, obviously, cannot use their tap water.

Some could have great success today, and a fail next month when the water company makes a change the user is unaware of.

If we did not understand why, it makes it hard to make recommendations about what is an appropriate husbandry decision.

There is a saying in our hobby that “every aquarium is different”. I prefer the view that “every aqaurist is different”, the successful and the not so sucessful. And boy do we hear from the successful, though the evangelism is sometimes too much.

There seems to be many ways to be sucessful in this hobby, maybe as many ways as there are successful reefers. We might need artificial intelligence, a machine learning app, to help us understand why success happens

 

[mindme]

We might need artificial intelligence, a machine learning app, to help us understand why success happens

I know a little about this topic, and I think the main thing you'd find is the need for a lot more data. Kind of the same problem we have without it sadly.

 

[Dan_P]

Why are these same standards not used in reverse?

Where are the actual symptoms of a tank experiencing these issues?

What is the actual timeline a tank can expect before it has these issues?

Why is the element of elevated temperatures ignored? Which is what triggers the bleaching events in the oceans, and the studies I've seen mentioned are largely based around that.

None of that is ever answered. It's always "can" and "may" with a timeline that is never defined.

All of this in the face of people posting demonstrable success and results, which are dismissed as anecdotal.

Well these results are anecdotal, right?

There is a thing known as implicit knowledge that is rarely communicated and possibly not fully understood by any owner of such knowledge. The explanation for success is a post hoc, after the fact, rationalization, not an in depth analysis nor is it information based on controlled experimentation.

We all know carbon dosing results in nitrogen and phosphorous reduction. What we don’t know are all the other things SunnyX does to be successful, right? I imagine SunnyX has an eye for detail, has developed a “sixth sense” for healthy looking coral and and knows a boat load about what makes coral happy. The carbon dosing just hapoens to be SunnyX’s way to control N and P and SunnyX believes that the methodolgy is key to success. Cool, but I think SunnyX is key to SunnyX’s success.

 

[Dan_P]

I know a little about this topic, and I think the main thing you'd find is the need for a lot more data. Kind of the same problem we have without it sadly.

Yep, but it is fun to think about how we might get everyone to contribute that boat load of data so that out pops an answer, hopefully not “42” though