Bacterial Driven System: A Recipe for Success.

[livinlifeinBKK]

I'm on one of the islands here doing some diving...the reefs are beautiful!...would collecting the water in a bottle for my two nanos actually do anything in your opinion? Tbh, i doubt a handful of sand would be missed either. I mean i head back to the city in the morning but the hotel I'm at is literally right on the water with beautiful corals right off the shore. Would the water actually make a difference in coral health in your opinion? (Like a liter for a 10 gallon nano)

 

[SunnyX]

Oh my.

Absolutely mind blowing! What’s your current alkalinity in this tank @SunnyX ?

Hello,

I keep at close to 10 as possible. My primary parameter, above everything, is PH. I keep that at 8.3-8.4.

 

[SunnyX]

I'm on one of the islands here doing some diving...the reefs are beautiful!...would collecting the water in a bottle for my two nanos actually do anything in your opinion? Tbh, i doubt a handful of sand would be missed either. I mean i head back to the city in the morning but the hotel I'm at is literally right on the water with beautiful corals right off the shore. Would the water actually make a difference in coral health in your opinion? (Like a liter for a 10 gallon nano)

Yes, without question water from the ocean will aid in increasing your biodiversity in the system by providing it with bacteria and organisms that you just can’t replicate in a barren system. Better yet, and if legal, grab a small live rock and some sand to add to your system.

I spoke about this in another thread, and will repost below:


think that you’re on to something here. One thing that I have noticed over the years is that every single local aquarium that I have given water, to aid in start up, has thrived and avoided many of the issues that plague new setups.

I do dose bacteria, and cycle between MB7 and Zeobak, but my systems have always been stable. Quite a bit of that has to do with my own maintenance and maniacal husbandry, but there is something to be said about quality water directly from the ocean or an established source.

The water currently in use in my systems has been going now for about 25 years, through various setups, from large to small. Even when I took a multi year hiatus from the hobby due to illness, I kept some rock and water going in the hopes of coming back one day.

In the beginning I did experience all manner of algae and issues, but since then every new setup that had rock and water transferred avoided many issues and kept on running as if it was one large chain of a continuous system. Back then, I ordered rock directly from Fiji and it was incredible stuff. Every couple years when I would transfer systems, a couple new pieces of Fiji rock were added to give the system a shot in the arm.

The diversity further increased when I launched Pro Corals and started importing corals from all over. The small rocks attached on corals from Australia were incredible. The PC Superman Acro came in on one of those Aussie shipments.

One thing that I have been playing around with is Zeolites. I shake them off daily via a Zeoreactor and the response of the corals has been incredible. My corals now are growing at a faster pace than I have ever experienced. Everything from SPS, LPS to Zoas is growing at an incredibly well. Its to the point that when my system hits the one year mark this spring, people may doubt the images of growth.

Concerning the disturbing trend of starting fallow systems, I believe that bottled bacteria has its place and will aid in startup, but is not a substitute for the real thing. 9/10 times when someone approaches me with a system issue, provided that all parameters are in check, we solve it by simply adding some real live rock. Now, it’s getting tougher to obtain live rock from the ocean, and I don’t even know if KP Aquatics is still shipping rock, so we need to find some new sources. Starting up a barren system to “avoid pests” is completely misguided and causes so much needless suffering and loss of live stock.

When you get down to the basics, and allow nature to take its course, success is sure to follow. Trust the process and trust in nature.

Now, if anyone would like some water, I’ll be selling it for $19.99!

-Sonny

 

[livinlifeinBKK]

Yes, without question water from the ocean will aid in increasing your biodiversity in the system by providing it with bacteria and organisms that you just can’t replicate in a barren system. Better yet, and if legal, grab a small live rock and some sand to add to your system.

I spoke about this in another thread, and will repost below:


think that you’re on to something here. One thing that I have noticed over the years is that every single local aquarium that I have given water, to aid in start up, has thrived and avoided many of the issues that plague new setups.

I do dose bacteria, and cycle between MB7 and Zeobak, but my systems have always been stable. Quite a bit of that has to do with my own maintenance and maniacal husbandry, but there is something to be said about quality water directly from the ocean or an established source.

The water currently in use in my systems has been going now for about 25 years, through various setups, from large to small. Even when I took a multi year hiatus from the hobby due to illness, I kept some rock and water going in the hopes of coming back one day.

In the beginning I did experience all manner of algae and issues, but since then every new setup that had rock and water transferred avoided many issues and kept on running as if it was one large chain of a continuous system. Back then, I ordered rock directly from Fiji and it was incredible stuff. Every couple years when I would transfer systems, a couple new pieces of Fiji rock were added to give the system a shot in the arm.

The diversity further increased when I launched Pro Corals and started importing corals from all over. The small rocks attached on corals from Australia were incredible. The PC Superman Acro came in on one of those Aussie shipments.

One thing that I have been playing around with is Zeolites. I shake them off daily via a Zeoreactor and the response of the corals has been incredible. My corals now are growing at a faster pace than I have ever experienced. Everything from SPS, LPS to Zoas is growing at an incredibly well. Its to the point that when my system hits the one year mark this spring, people may doubt the images of growth.

Concerning the disturbing trend of starting fallow systems, I believe that bottled bacteria has its place and will aid in startup, but is not a substitute for the real thing. 9/10 times when someone approaches me with a system issue, provided that all parameters are in check, we solve it by simply adding some real live rock. Now, it’s getting tougher to obtain live rock from the ocean, and I don’t even know if KP Aquatics is still shipping rock, so we need to find some new sources. Starting up a barren system to “avoid pests” is completely misguided and causes so much needless suffering and loss of live stock.

When you get down to the basics, and allow nature to take its course, success is sure to follow. Trust the process and trust in nature.

Now, if anyone would like some water, I’ll be selling it for $19.99!

-Sonny

Great to hear! I'll definitely be taking some bottles back with me in that case! I doubt it's legal to collect the rocks but a handful of sand i highly doubt would be missed! I'll jump in early in the morning before heading to the pier and fill up a few bottles!
P.S. I can be your supplier for water directly from the Indo-Pacific haha (i actually would send it over there if someone was willing to pay for it!)

 

[SunnyX]

For those interested, I did put up a quick video with what I am currently dosing:

 

[InvaderJim]

Yes, without question water from the ocean will aid in increasing your biodiversity in the system by providing it with bacteria and organisms that you just can’t replicate in a barren system. Better yet, and if legal, grab a small live rock and some sand to add to your system.

I spoke about this in another thread, and will repost below:


think that you’re on to something here. One thing that I have noticed over the years is that every single local aquarium that I have given water, to aid in start up, has thrived and avoided many of the issues that plague new setups.

I do dose bacteria, and cycle between MB7 and Zeobak, but my systems have always been stable. Quite a bit of that has to do with my own maintenance and maniacal husbandry, but there is something to be said about quality water directly from the ocean or an established source.

The water currently in use in my systems has been going now for about 25 years, through various setups, from large to small. Even when I took a multi year hiatus from the hobby due to illness, I kept some rock and water going in the hopes of coming back one day.

In the beginning I did experience all manner of algae and issues, but since then every new setup that had rock and water transferred avoided many issues and kept on running as if it was one large chain of a continuous system. Back then, I ordered rock directly from Fiji and it was incredible stuff. Every couple years when I would transfer systems, a couple new pieces of Fiji rock were added to give the system a shot in the arm.

The diversity further increased when I launched Pro Corals and started importing corals from all over. The small rocks attached on corals from Australia were incredible. The PC Superman Acro came in on one of those Aussie shipments.

One thing that I have been playing around with is Zeolites. I shake them off daily via a Zeoreactor and the response of the corals has been incredible. My corals now are growing at a faster pace than I have ever experienced. Everything from SPS, LPS to Zoas is growing at an incredibly well. Its to the point that when my system hits the one year mark this spring, people may doubt the images of growth.

Concerning the disturbing trend of starting fallow systems, I believe that bottled bacteria has its place and will aid in startup, but is not a substitute for the real thing. 9/10 times when someone approaches me with a system issue, provided that all parameters are in check, we solve it by simply adding some real live rock. Now, it’s getting tougher to obtain live rock from the ocean, and I don’t even know if KP Aquatics is still shipping rock, so we need to find some new sources. Starting up a barren system to “avoid pests” is completely misguided and causes so much needless suffering and loss of live stock.

When you get down to the basics, and allow nature to take its course, success is sure to follow. Trust the process and trust in nature.

Now, if anyone would like some water, I’ll be selling it for $19.99!

-Sonny

I'm actually swapping out some rock in my tank with some from KP Aquatics. So they are still in business and the rock looks amazing. Hopefully this also fixes my tank ailments by adding real live rock.

 

[Miami Reef]

For those interested, I did put up a quick video with what I am currently dosing:

Nice. It’s basically a zeovit system, but the only difference is that you switched the zeovit zeostart3 with np bacto balance.

 

[schooncw]

@SunnyX First, great write up! I've been carbon dosing now for about a year on my 340 gallon mixed reef. I run many types of filtration as my carbon dosing levels are very high to maintain my target nutrients. First off, and most important, the problems I'm solving for:

1. High nitrates in a mixed reef - I hit nitrates of 40 ppm while dosing 55 ml a day of vodka.
2. High phosphates - hit .40 ppm while carbon dosing 55 ml per day.
3. Coral growth stunted
4. Corals dieing off - I've lost close to $1000 worth of hammers, elegance, mostly LPS corals. Even my toad stool started losing flesh.
5. No water changes

With that said, the filtration I'm running to just to maintain cleanliness:
1. Oversized skimmer - rated for 500 gallons moderate load.
2. Well established Algae turf scrubber
3. I ran matrix rock in a cannister filter, have since put the 25 micron cartridge back due to vodka dosing (will identify reasons later).
4. Just installed a red Sea 1200 Roller mat - Going through rolls of paper within 10-12 days right now. (I believe this to be due to vodka dosing based on #3)


So, that said, My response to the issues was to gradually increase my vodka dosing. I've gone from being at 55ml per for the past year to 75 ml per day over the last 3 months. Since then, My nitrates have gone from 40 down to 27. And my phosphates have been reduced to .08 (in combination with dosing very lightly phosphate-e - around 6 ml once to twice per week depending on if levels are increasing or remaining the same.)

So, it's working to get things down to where I would like. I would like nitrates to remain steady at 15 - 25, and phosphates to remain between .05 and .1. I have a couple SPS that do not like the lowered nutrient values at all. They've endured some bleaching, but many polyps are still open and appear to be coming back as they adapt to the new nutrient levels. Other SPS are flourishing now that things are more in check..

So, if things are going in the right direction, why this write up? Well, simply put, bacterial slime! I think the slime itself was possibly damaging some of my corals. I have slime covering my overflow teeth, my gyres were covered in slime (I'm not sure how they even were running, so much slime on the blades) within 2-3 weeks they have slime all over them). My skimmer is constantly pulling out black water. The paper on my roller mat is covered in a thick jellylike slime, and my 25 micron cannister filter was covered in slime as well. I'm having to wash basically everything in the tank within 2-3 weeks due to the amount of bacterial slime.

My PH probe is showing PH just getting to 8.05 and 7.97 at night. It used to easily get to 8.2 - 8.4 during the day and 8.1 at night. Going from 55 ml a day to 75 ml per day has had huge impacts.

My return pump intake screen is covered in slime within 3-4 days reducing my flow to the tank. I have a reeflo hammerhead external return pump. I'm scared to take it a part to see how much slime is inside it.

I don't know how healthy it is for that much thick slime to be in the water column for fish to be swimming in. Maybe adding in the reef mat and 25 micron cannister cartridge will solve the problem, but I can't afford to replace a $30 roller of roller paper 3-4 times a month. . .

So, how do you deal with bacterial slime? I like where my nutrients are going, but, I don't like the slime monster!

You mentioned using Lanthanum Chloride......It is binding with PO and forming a flocculant and with relative certainty, I will say THIS is your "slime". It will be everywhere and I would suggest not using LAN and doing a really deep clean of your rock, all pumps, sump, etc.

 

[ptrusk]

@SunnyX what is you opinion of dosing phyto in addition to bacteria? I recently started dosing phyto to boost zooplankton and noticed good results with sps. However, when I add MB7 which was my go to for a while, I notice quite a bit of film algae that was not present when dosing only bacteria. Stopped adding amino because I feed a ton and have a number of fish, Appreciate your insight on phyto and bacteria.

 

[South Carolina reef]

For those interested, I did put up a quick video with what I am currently dosing:

Does running a UV affect this method

 

[Treefer32]

Does running a UV affect this method

I may try this. My nitrates have slowly come down from 65 to 40. Phosphates have dropped from .35 to 0 over a 2 month period. In part due to vodka dosing, algae scrubber, and reinstating matrix rock and I added in AquaChar and refreshed my denitrification pellets.

I'm vodka dosing around 50 ml per day. (350 gallon system). I'll do my first water change in March in 6 months. Mostly to try to dilute the nitrates down from 40 to 20. To see if I can get nitrates in check.

I switched the food I was feeding as well. It must have been adding a lot of nitrates. As soon as I quit feeding my home made food nitrates and phosphates dropped within 7 days.

Things are going in the right direction, just surprised it's taking over 3 months.

 

[SunnyX]

Does running a UV affect this method

Hello,

I would not run UV with this method. Firstly because the UV, depending on its strength, may kill the bacteria. Secondly, the bacterial driven system is going to create water clarity that will rival that of UV, making it redundant.

Why are you looking or currently running UV?

 

[SunnyX]

@SunnyX what is you opinion of dosing phyto in addition to bacteria? I recently started dosing phyto to boost zooplankton and noticed good results with sps. However, when I add MB7 which was my go to for a while, I notice quite a bit of film algae that was not present when dosing only bacteria. Stopped adding amino because I feed a ton and have a number of fish, Appreciate your insight on phyto and bacteria.

Hello,

In my opinion, save your money and skip the phyto. I have found bacteria and small doses of amino acids to be superior to Phyto, and much more cost effective in use.

I have employed bacteria/carbon dosing for 20 years and have solid results, but with my latest system and the use of the zeovit reactor, my growth and coral health has been incredible. Its mind blowing to think that my tank is going to be grown out in just under a year, and now I am presented with a new problem, of what to do with the corals and the constant clipping that is now required.

With the Zeovit reactor, I run half the recommended amount of media for twice the recommended length of time. What I am after with the media is an endless supply of bacteria for the system, as the bacteria can provide 100% of the nutritional needs of the corals. Each night, I give the reactor a shake and release a storm of bacteria. Yes, the reactors are expensive, but in time the unit will pay for itself with the money saved on GFO, coral food and water changes.

-Sonny

 

[graziano]

Hello,

In my opinion, save your money and skip the phyto. I have found bacteria and small doses of amino acids to be superior to Phyto, and much more cost effective in use.

I have employed bacteria/carbon dosing for 20 years and have solid results, but with my latest system and the use of the zeovit reactor, my growth and coral health has been incredible. Its mind blowing to think that my tank is going to be grown out in just under a year, and now I am presented with a new problem, of what to do with the corals and the constant clipping that is now required.

With the Zeovit reactor, I run half the recommended amount of media for twice the recommended length of time. What I am after with the media is an endless supply of bacteria for the system, as the bacteria can provide 100% of the nutritional needs of the corals. Each night, I give the reactor a shake and release a storm of bacteria. Yes, the reactors are expensive, but in time the unit will pay for itself with the money saved on GFO, coral food and water changes.

-Sonny

I don't know your prices but here in Italy you can find a manual zeolite reactor for €150 or with DIY it is simple to build

 

[SunnyX]

I don't know your prices but here in Italy you can find a manual zeolite reactor for €150 or with DIY it is simple to build

Hello,

That is a good price. The KZ reactor goes for around $500USD here.

 

[South Carolina reef]

Hello,

I would not run UV with this method. Firstly because the UV, depending on its strength, may kill the bacteria. Secondly, the bacterial driven system is going to create water clarity that will rival that of UV, making it redundant.

Why are you looking or currently running UV?

I am currently running a 15w uv yes. The process you have described interests me a great deal. My tank is young and seems to be doing well other than a spat of cyano I'm currently fighting. Phytoplankton seems to help that though. Don't judge me on the foxface and tang please ....

 

[hubble]

is it ok to start dosing MB7 in a new tank or wait till you have elevated levels?

 

[SunnyX]

is it ok to start dosing MB7 in a new tank or wait till you have elevated levels?

Hello,

No issue dosing bacteria from the start. It is my preferred method as it will allow the bacteria to seed the surfaces before nuisance algae can take hold.

-Sonny

 

[mfollen]

Thank you very much Sunny, your method has been of great help for my newer system to stabilize.

With dosing NP bacto balance, since it contains the K+ trace elements, do you dose the TM A trace elements separately (or any other trace element products) to balance the trace elements in the system?

 

[ReeferJay86]

This has nothing to do with CD, but what is you light schedule? I’m still fairly new to the hobby but doesn’t flow and light intensity drive bacterial growth?