Bacterial Ghost, Help! Microbiome Reset?

[alexio215]

Hello everyone, thank you for taking the time to read this, I feel as if I have been plagued by some invisible force limiting the growth and enjoyability of my tank. Turning desparate, and starting to converge on the idea that whatever I am fighting, must be bacterial.

Some context to start:
Started with dry rock
Biweekly (30g) water changes
3 year mixed reef tank, with the only real success found in Euphillyia, specifically hammers and frogspawn
150g display, 30g sump
DFC-280 skimmer, rated for WELL above our water volume
55W UV
3 tangs, 2 clowns, 1 wrasse, 2 anthias, 1 mandarin, 1 angel, 2 gobies

The story:
So we had a long ugly stage in the beginning, and eventually got over it, between a battle of cyano and diatoms at the 1 year mark, we decided to run chemiclean, lights out, dose a slight amount of silica, all the works to attempt to put those two in balance. Eventually, everything had calm down, and with a dose of Microbacter7, we assumed that most of our troubles were over. However, over the entire 3 years, we have consistently struggled to grow Chaetomorpha, even while dosing iron. A light that others claimed success with, we could not. Whats more, our nutrient levels were consistently high, both Nitrate and Phosphate. We suspect this is where it all went downhill, we started carbon dosing. We used our own mixture of NoPox from a thread advised by Randy Holmes Farley. No intent to place blame here, only to give some legitimacy to the mixture of NoPox we used, he is undoubtedly a walking tome of reef chemistry. Regardless, we continued to dose, and saw numbers improving, but at one point, we noticed that our rocks had begun to get dark, the sand slightly discolored, a brown in blue light. At this time, our corals started to close up, and our Duncan, Elegance, and Goniopora became pretty unhappy. We moved them to another tank, where they seemed to have recovered. After this we added Microbactery7/Dr Tims Ecobalance to the main tank. The issue now is, that our nutrients always creep up, and whenever we carbon dose (even using a good product like Tropic Marin ElimiNP) the initial results are good, and after, corals become unhappy and the rocks/sand take on a dark color and seem to be covered in something. At this point, its become an endless rollercoaster. Nutrients cannot get under control, and when they do, we seem to face some sort of bacterial problem. At this point, I'm wondering if there is some way to fully reset the microbiome, start afresh, without tearing down the tank.

Bacterial Products used:
MicroBacter7
Dr.Tims Ecobalance
Homemade NoPox
Tropic Marin ElimiNP

TLDR:
Ugly Stage --> Chemiclean (few months in between) -->High Nutrients --> Carbon Dose (Catalyst?, works in the beginning) --> Brown/Dark Rocks/Sand --> Stop dosing --> Dose Beneficial Bacteria --> [Nutrients Go up --> Carbon Dose (works in the beginning) --> Brown/Dark Rocks/Sand] --> Repeat

Is there some sort of Microbiome reset? I'd like to reset all the bacteria in my tank to the good ones.
Elegance coral as some sort of canary/warning sign?
This is the ghost thats been hauting my reef tank.

Some of the recent results below in pictures so that the rollercoaster of nutrients can be shown.

 

[Catawba_Valley_Reef]

It sounds like there were a lot of changes made in the early stages of the tank that really threw things off.

Have you considered bringing down the alkalinity? Your No3/Po4 numbers really aren’t that bad. Several folks have successful tanks with those numbers.

If it were me and I was trying to get “good” bacteria I would bring in some live rock. You could put it in your sump to make sure no bad crabs or anything made it into the DT.

I would also stop adding any chemicals to your tank.

Looking at your notes it appears your tank likes to run/has settled in the 40 to 50 ppm No3 and .25 Po4 range. I wouldn’t be too concerned there unless you are dealing with some bad algae. LPS corals should be thriving with those numbers honestly.

I can’t get chaeto to grow in my system either, but the algae scrubber works without issue. Maybe look into algae scrubbers as a natural way of bringing down those numbers if that is what you desire.

Lastly, what kind of lighting are you using?

 

[KrisReef]

I’m skimming and drinking and waiting for the check. My alk is-8.0, or 7.9 unless something has gone wrong but the point I mentioning is that alk stability should look more like my numbers than yours

Figure out how to get it stabilized without moving around and then watch your nutrients move towards zero as the microbes take over and run the show.

Then, you may need to adjust them, but nothing will work properly until the alk is solid

Mg high is ok, but again stability is key

 

[KrisReef]

Oh, and a frag of fresh ocean live rock is a great way to import the microbes from the ocean. The bottle is ok but the population is too narrow for real diversity.

 

[alexio215]

It sounds like there were a lot of changes made in the early stages of the tank that really threw things off.

Have you considered bringing down the alkalinity? Your No3/Po4 numbers really aren’t that bad. Several folks have successful tanks with those numbers.

If it were me and I was trying to get “good” bacteria I would bring in some live rock. You could put it in your sump to make sure no bad crabs or anything made it into the DT.

I would also stop adding any chemicals to your tank.

Looking at your notes it appears your tank likes to run/has settled in the 40 to 50 ppm No3 and .25 Po4 range. I wouldn’t be too concerned there unless you are dealing with some bad algae. LPS corals should be thriving with those numbers honestly.

I can’t get chaeto to grow in my system either, but the algae scrubber works without issue. Maybe look into algae scrubbers as a natural way of bringing down those numbers if that is what you desire.

Lastly, what kind of lighting are you using?

Thank you for the reply. We are trying to bring the alkalinity down. Recently we had some spike and we cant figure out why, but have brought the doser down. We like to stick in the 9-9.5 range ideally.

The only reason for concern with No3 and Po4 is because we try to have a couple of SPS, some of which I've noticed happier with lower Po4.

As for lighting, I am currently running the Neptune Sky with the Neptune Sky spectrum (A mix of all colors). We hit about 200s at the top of the tank, and 50-80 towards the bottom.

Do you think Live Rock really makes that much of a difference? My concern is that it will be overpowered by whatever other biology is already in the tank, or that it simply won't have the power to make a meaningful change. It would ideally have been the best way to start, and there is some regret in not doing so.

 

[alexio215]

Oh, and a frag of fresh ocean live rock is a great way to import the microbes from the ocean. The bottle is ok but the population is too narrow for real diversity.

This seems to be a running suggestion that I've seen across threads, but more so to start/seed the tank. Does it make a big difference in an established tank? Do the other bacteria have the power to proliferate in the rest of the already established tank? Thank you as well, for the reply, it is greatly appreciated.

 

[Catawba_Valley_Reef]

Thank you for the reply. We are trying to bring the alkalinity down. Recently we had some spike and we cant figure out why, but have brought the doser down. We like to stick in the 9-9.5 range ideally.

The only reason for concern with No3 and Po4 is because we try to have a couple of SPS, some of which I've noticed happier with lower Po4.

As for lighting, I am currently running the Neptune Sky with the Neptune Sky spectrum (A mix of all colors). We hit about 200s at the top of the tank, and 50-80 towards the bottom.

Do you think Live Rock really makes that much of a difference? My concern is that it will be overpowered by whatever other biology is already in the tank, or that it simply won't have the power to make a meaningful change. It would ideally have been the best way to start, and there is some regret in not doing so.

Good to know on the alk. My guess on the spike is probably closed windows and ac on which increases co2 in the house and lowers tank ph resulting in less calcification leading to an increase in alkalinity…just speculating.

I wonder if the SPS being unhappy is related to something other than those numbers? The biggest issue I’ve seen with SPS and higher no3/po4 is sometimes the corals can darken or even brown out. Po4 spikes or drops are a whole different ball game though.

I have a Sky on my frag tank and like it. The par numbers you are getting seem to be acceptable. Were the SPS toward the top of the tank? Some folks consider 250 to 350 a sweet spot for SPS, although they can handle more and sometimes even less par.

I think the live rock can definitely help. One surefire way to know is to do an Aquabiomics test on your tank right now. It will tell you exactly what types of bacteria and other things are in your tank. Add live tock and perform another test 6 mos down the line.

 

[bubbgee]

You can do an aquabiomics test just to have an idea what your biome looks like. All I know is vibrio is something that needs to be contained and Dr Tim’s eco-balance is supposed to control that. I also dose crt concoction, Aquaforest Lifesource, PNS bio, pytho and silicate for some diatoms—the idea being to increase biodiversity as much as possible.

I don’t carbon dose as carbon is used by all bacteria good and bad and I don’t want to risk increasing the bad ones.

 

[alexio215]

Good to know on the alk. My guess on the spike is probably closed windows and ac on which increases co2 in the house and lowers tank ph resulting in less calcification leading to an increase in alkalinity…just speculating.

I wonder if the SPS being unhappy is related to something other than those numbers? The biggest issue I’ve seen with SPS and higher no3/po4 is sometimes the corals can darken or even brown out. Po4 spikes or drops are a whole different ball game though.

I have a Sky on my frag tank and like it. The par numbers you are getting seem to be acceptable. Were the SPS toward the top of the tank? Some folks consider 250 to 350 a sweet spot for SPS, although they can handle more and sometimes even less par.

I think the live rock can definitely help. One surefire way to know is to do an Aquabiomics test on your tank right now. It will tell you exactly what types of bacteria and other things are in your tank. Add live tock and perform another test 6 mos down the line.

So our PH consistently hovers around 8.4 to 8.5 with windows closed. We've always had really high PH thankfully, its not been an issue to us. Po4 the colors just seem to be better and polyps a little more open when its lower.

For the SPS, we are hitting about 200-250 and the corals seem moderately happy with the light. Im afraid to push it more in worry for the LPS and softies towards the middle and bottom of the tank.

Question regarding the Aquabiomics test, I've seen a lot of skepticism about it. Does it measure the bacteria on the rock itself? Or just the water column?

Regardless, I am leaning towards attempting the Reef Rubble live rock, as an attempt to introduce some more diversity.

 

[alexio215]

You can do an aquabiomics test just to have an idea what your biome looks like. All I know is vibrio is something that needs to be contained and Dr Tim’s eco-balance is supposed to control that. I also dose crt concoction, Aquaforest Lifesource, PNS bio, pytho and silicate for some diatoms—the idea being to increase biodiversity as much as possible.

I don’t carbon dose as carbon is used by all bacteria good and bad and I don’t want to risk increasing the bad ones.

Thank you. I'm wondering if there is some need/benefit to consistently dose beneficial bacteria, and whatever mixture of it. I feel like biodiversity may have been my hidden troubles, and I'm wondering if there is some cost effective way to fight against it, that being some good bacterial mixture.

Thank you for your replies.

 

[Catawba_Valley_Reef]

So our PH consistently hovers around 8.4 to 8.5 with windows closed. We've always had really high PH thankfully, its not been an issue to us. Po4 the colors just seem to be better and polyps a little more open when its lower.

For the SPS, we are hitting about 200-250 and the corals seem moderately happy with the light. Im afraid to push it more in worry for the LPS and softies towards the middle and bottom of the tank.

Question regarding the Aquabiomics test, I've seen a lot of skepticism about it. Does it measure the bacteria on the rock itself? Or just the water column?

Regardless, I am leaning towards attempting the Reef Rubble live rock, as an attempt to introduce some more diversity.

That’s a really good number for pH if it’s accurate. Probes drift all the time and should be recalibrated often (not saying you aren’t doing that).

I understand on what you observe with your corals and things looking better under x,y,z conditions. I think you could get your numbers down, but I would do it in a slow controlled fashion and something that you can replicate consistently so there aren’t spikes. I personally use rowaphos every once and a while. I stick to an algae scrubber and water changes (even in a 450g system) for nitrate management.

You’d be amazed at what the LPS and even softies can handle if done slowly. The bottom of my tank is between 150 and 200 par. This is a 30” tall tank. Candy canes, chalices, etc are all getting a minimum of around 150.

Obviously you wouldn’t want to do this with high alk and low no3/po4…but it works in my tank with 8 dkh and 25 ppm No3 and around .10 Po4.

The aquabiomics test is sampled from the water column. It’s been a while since I’ve done one, so maybe something has changed. I think in your case where you feel it’s a microbiome issue then aquabiomics is really the only option right now. I think it would be worth it. Aquabiomics also advises against using uv sterilizers except for when you are trying to correct a certain issue. I would take a look at their site and check out the FAQs. If nothing else, the test may show that your microbiome is fine, which would assist with troubleshooting.

I would definitely do live rock of some sort. The stuff in a bottle can’t replicate the different strains of bacteria found in the ocean. Aquabiomics sells rubble/sand which is tested to ensure no pathogens.

 

[bubbgee]

Thank you. I'm wondering if there is some need/benefit to consistently dose beneficial bacteria, and whatever mixture of it. I feel like biodiversity may have been my hidden troubles, and I'm wondering if there is some cost effective way to fight against it, that being some good bacterial mixture.

Thank you for your replies.

I continually dose bacteria at least once a week without any issues. You have no control over what bacteria could grow.

I do run an oversized UV sterilizer and that likely affects the bad pathogens as much as good ones, hence I have to keep dosing bacteria as needed.

 

[alexio215]

In regards, to PH, I have measured manually as well to confirm that probe hasn't drifted. Not sure why, but PH seems to be in some indefinite high point.

The Algae scrubber and Live Rock certainly seem tempting as a fresh start and more targeted nutrient management.

I do like running my UV since at one point we think one of the fish got sick, but ever since, they've shown zero signs of any disease and are incredibly healthy. So mayyyybe it'd be okay to turn it off for a while? I'm curious what level of an impact that has on the microbiome.

I really do wish that I could grow chaeto... though I've gone down that rabbit hole with no success. This makes the algae scrubber all the more tempting.