Banggai Cardinalfish death

[jts813]

Hi,

I'm new to the hobby. Last week I got 2 banggai cardinalfish and a diamond goby along with macroalgae for display, purple gorgonian, and snails online. The two cardinalfish died on me this morning practically in front of my eyes. I wish I had gotten a video or photos but didn't think about it and had to run off to work. Wanted to get some advice or maybe more to just vent as reading some similar posts on fish death I get some sense of some of the possibilities and limits without video or photos.

As background. I have a 30 gallon tank. 2 months old. Recent parameters show Ammonia -0, Nitrite -0. Nitrate 20 -40 "okay" on test strip guide. Salinity 35. This was from 2 days ago. Has been this way for the last 2 months essentially. Didn't get chance to test this morning but will do so when I get back home. Preexisting are 2 small clownfish, 2 green chromis, purple firefish, and cleaner shrimp. Was adding 1-2 fish every 2 weeks or so. The last addition prior was the firefish about 3-4 weeks ago. No corals.

Maybe I bought too much at once but was trying to get the best value out of the online purchase and shipping coast. They actually gave me two cardinalfish instead of one that I ordered actually. The online company notes the fish are aquaculture, treated, fed mix of pellets and mysis shrimp. I know, I'll get criticism for not doing QT despite the online companies reputation and protocols.

The cardinalfish looked healthy but did not eat the entire time except one time I saw take a single mysis shrimp and that's it. I usually feed pellets. Sometimes about once or twice a week or so will give flakes and frozen mysis shrimp. They would sometimes take a pellet but spit it right back out. During feeding they would initially seem interested and then just go to a corner or bottom portion of the tank.

The not eating was bothering me. Usually I give half a cube of frozen mysis shrimp. Last night I feed a whole cube of mysis shrimp thinking maybe they just need better opportunity to get the food since the other fish are pretty aggressive at getting the food.

This morning I saw one of the fish half laying on sand but would still move a little, but seemed to mostly be getting pushed by the current. The other fish was moving, seemed ok, but then seemed kind of sluggish moving. I feed pellets and the one fish did actually go towards water surface which was atypical but did not seem to be swimming smoothly. The one laying on sand, I took out and placed in separate small fish bowl. Had to get ready for work and 5 minutes later, the other one was laying on the sand as well. They didn't seem to be breathing very hard, mouth wasn't open. The other fish are moving well. The new sand goby looks skinny, but came that way and was moving around during feeding.

I think the concerns would be disease when there are sudden multiple deaths. I not sure but could they have "starved" not eating for a week. Maybe combination of stress and not eating. Maybe overfeeding, changed water parameters overnights. Something about both dying at the same times leaves me bad feeling about my tank.

 

[MnFish1]

I think it's hard to say. My concern, though, would be for the rest of your fish. Cardinals are a bit iffy despite the aquaculture. I would watch carefully for any other disease process that may be playing a role.

 

[EeyoreIsMySpiritAnimal]

As an aside, now that your tank is through the initial cycle, you'll want to skip the test strips and buy better kits. No need for nitrite and no need for ammonia unless you plan on overstocking the tank... Nitrate tests are important for a fish-only tank, phosphate tests to a lesser degree...

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Hi,

I'm new to the hobby. Last week I got 2 banggai cardinalfish and a diamond goby along with macroalgae for display, purple gorgonian, and snails online. The two cardinalfish died on me this morning practically in front of my eyes. I wish I had gotten a video or photos but didn't think about it and had to run off to work. Wanted to get some advice or maybe more to just vent as reading some similar posts on fish death I get some sense of some of the possibilities and limits without video or photos.

As background. I have a 30 gallon tank. 2 months old. Recent parameters show Ammonia -0, Nitrite -0. Nitrate 20 -40 "okay" on test strip guide. Salinity 35. This was from 2 days ago. Has been this way for the last 2 months essentially. Didn't get chance to test this morning but will do so when I get back home. Preexisting are 2 small clownfish, 2 green chromis, purple firefish, and cleaner shrimp. Was adding 1-2 fish every 2 weeks or so. The last addition prior was the firefish about 3-4 weeks ago. No corals.

Maybe I bought too much at once but was trying to get the best value out of the online purchase and shipping coast. They actually gave me two cardinalfish instead of one that I ordered actually. The online company notes the fish are aquaculture, treated, fed mix of pellets and mysis shrimp. I know, I'll get criticism for not doing QT despite the online companies reputation and protocols.

The cardinalfish looked healthy but did not eat the entire time except one time I saw take a single mysis shrimp and that's it. I usually feed pellets. Sometimes about once or twice a week or so will give flakes and frozen mysis shrimp. They would sometimes take a pellet but spit it right back out. During feeding they would initially seem interested and then just go to a corner or bottom portion of the tank.

The not eating was bothering me. Usually I give half a cube of frozen mysis shrimp. Last night I feed a whole cube of mysis shrimp thinking maybe they just need better opportunity to get the food since the other fish are pretty aggressive at getting the food.

This morning I saw one of the fish half laying on sand but would still move a little, but seemed to mostly be getting pushed by the current. The other fish was moving, seemed ok, but then seemed kind of sluggish moving. I feed pellets and the one fish did actually go towards water surface which was atypical but did not seem to be swimming smoothly. The one laying on sand, I took out and placed in separate small fish bowl. Had to get ready for work and 5 minutes later, the other one was laying on the sand as well. They didn't seem to be breathing very hard, mouth wasn't open. The other fish are moving well. The new sand goby looks skinny, but came that way and was moving around during feeding.

I think the concerns would be disease when there are sudden multiple deaths. I not sure but could they have "starved" not eating for a week. Maybe combination of stress and not eating. Maybe overfeeding, changed water parameters overnights. Something about both dying at the same times leaves me bad feeling about my tank.

Banggai cardinalfish are a big concern right now. Do you know if these were domestically raised or raised overseas (you probably don't). The problem has been that there is a virus that infects these fish and causes high mortality, right about the time that home aquarists get them. Wild caught Banggai are the most affected, but overseas, they raise Banggai in sea pens, inshore areas where they are not normally found, or in tanks, where these fish are later mixed with wild caught ones, and they can pick up the virus that way.

Here is a write-up I did about that:

Banggai Cardinalfish Iridovirus (BCIR)

This fish was originally discovered in 1933 but then lost to science for about 60 years, when the Banggai cardinalfish (Pterapogon kauderni) was “rediscovered” and began entering the tropical fish trade. Aquarists noted how hardy the species was and that they were very easy to reproduce in captivity. A decade later, the price for wild-caught Banggai cardinalfish had decreased fivefold, but the animals were now considered very delicate, with high losses seen in newly acquired wild fish.

What was the cause of this sudden change in the apparent health of this species in captivity? Poor handling, collection with cyanide (unlikely), and bacterial disease were all suggested as possible reasons for this change. A researcher then published a study showing that the presence of an iridovirus was associated with episodes of mass mortality in newly imported cardinalfish (Weber et al. 2009). A similar virus has since been isolated from the common batfish, Platax orbicularis (Sriwanayos et al. 2013), but a corresponding high mortality in aquarium fish of that species has not been noted, perhaps because many fewer batfish are imported for the pet trade than the ever-popular Banggai cardinalfish.

Since there is no cure for this viral disease, captive-raised fish that were never exposed to wild stock, or fish that have subsequently developed immunity by surviving an infection would be the best choices for aquarists. Avoid inexpensive wild-caught Banggai Cardinalfish. Not only do they have a poor survival record, but they’re also being collected at such a high rate that wild populations are locally threatened with extinction.

That said, the fish could have had other issues, some of which could be contagious to your existing fish.....

Jay

 

[jts813]

Unfortunate up date. When I got home my diamond sand goby was just in the corner for several hours not moving. I got desperate and tried a freshwater dip for 5 minutes. He was easy to get out and didn’t put up much of a resistance. Usually he darts into a cave right away. The freshwater didn’t make a difference. I didn’t see any obvious flukes or anything afterwards. He didn’t improve either when I put him back in tank. In fact my cleaner shrimp got interested and had to chase him away. Eventually was turned belly up still breathing. I noticed black spot under chin. I had actually noticed this before and I read some post where some variations can have that. But I’ll post some videos so you can see my set up, other fish health and the goby. I took him out of the tank again as I didn’t see a point of letting him decompose in tank and if infected spreading any disease.

 

[vetteguy53081]

Unfortunate up date. When I got home my diamond sand goby was just in the corner for several hours not moving. I got desperate and tried a freshwater dip for 5 minutes. He was easy to get out and didn’t put up much of a resistance. Usually he darts into a cave right away. The freshwater didn’t make a difference. I didn’t see any obvious flukes or anything afterwards. He didn’t improve either when I put him back in tank. In fact my cleaner shrimp got interested and had to chase him away. Eventually was turned belly up still breathing. I noticed black spot under chin. I had actually noticed this before and I read some post where some variations can have that. But I’ll post some videos so you can see my set up, other fish health and the goby. I took him out of the tank again as I didn’t see a point of letting him decompose in tank and if infected spreading any disease.

For the future, when a fish is stressed or breathing heavy, a FW dip adds stress and can have negative results leading to death or further complications. FW dips buy time more than anything.

 

[jts813]

Display tank

 

[jts813]

Close up

 

[jts813]

Sorry don’t think my video post are uploading. Here is a photo at least of the black spot under chin

 

[Mr. Mojo Rising]

Just me, but I think you overloaded your tank. 8 fish in a 30 gallon is overtstocked, and 8 fish in only 2 months in a 30 gallon is going way too fast and overstocked. The tank was not able to keep up how fast you are adding fish/bioload. Slow down, and keep it to 5-6 fish only for that tank.

 

[fishywishy]

There’s actually a problem with wild caught banggai cardinals right now. There’s like a virus or something that’s going around thats just affecting banggai cardinals. I Bought 2 pairs of cardinal fish that were all completely quarantined but they all passed away within a few days to a week. They all looked completely fine for a few days then stopped eating randomly. I think thats most likely what happened to your fish because even if they were captive bred lots of retailers combine their captive bred ones with their wild caught ones for some reason.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Sorry don’t think my video post are uploading. Here is a photo at least of the black spot under chin

One observation - the goby is REALLY thin. However, it is suspicious that it died so soon after the cardinalfish did, so I would think that they did bring something into your tank and that it is not the virus, as that only affects cardinalfish and batfish that we know if.

Jay

 

[vetteguy53081]

Sorry don’t think my video post are uploading. Here is a photo at least of the black spot under chin

What foods are you offering?
Bangaii only eats frozen meaty foods which too should be offered to the goby. Agree on thin and perhaps the thinnest one ive seen

 

[jts813]

Yes, he was that thin when I got him and I thought the same thing. Just had him only a week but by the second day he was active, shifting a lot of sand. Was eating some pellets I thought or at least shifting the sand that had pellets. He did seem to eat a mysis shrimp as well. I assume he might eat any left over on the sand as well. Usually I feed pellets, but 1-2x a week feed mysis shrimp. I'm thinking my sand was not mature enough to sustain him maybe. He actually was the most fun to watch. So really bummed. But crossing my fingers for the my prexisting fish. They all seem healthy and active still this morning. Not a good sign that all the new fish died of course. Hopefully it was like what one of the other posters mentioned regarding bio load. I did repeat my water testing when I got home last night and the nitrates was a little higher 40 "okay" per the test strip still. And the nitrite looked trace 0.5 "caution". Ammonia was negative. I think my preexisting fish are notoriously a little more hardy. I may try to post a video still. But it looks likely directly uploading is not really feasible given size of file and instead I need to create a youtube account to upload and link to. I appreciate all the different input that people have had. All very good knowledge for a naive new hobbyist.

 

[SteveMM62Reef]

I haven’t had any luck with them. I bought three, and they died in Quarantine. I blamed it on me, as I got sick. Tried Three more, fully quarantined and slow dripped acclimated them to my 120 Gallon. They were eating frozen and flake food. Went on vacation, came back all were alive. A week later all three died one right after another. Nothing changed with the Aquarium, all other fish, invertebrates and corals were fine. Was wondering if there was too much inbreeding.

 

[EeyoreIsMySpiritAnimal]

As background. I have a 30 gallon tank. 2 months old

Tank was definitely too young for a sand sifting goby.

Preexisting are 2 small clownfish, 2 green chromis, purple firefish, and cleaner shrimp. Was adding 1-2 fish every 2 weeks or so.

That's already pushing the limits of a 30 gallon, and you're adding fish too quickly.

Just me, but I think you overloaded your tank. 8 fish in a 30 gallon is overtstocked, and 8 fish in only 2 months in a 30 gallon is going way too fast and overstocked.

BINGO!

I'm thinking my sand was not mature enough to sustain him

Yep. Not to be "that guy (girl)" but please research a fish's needs before buying it...

And the nitrite looked trace 0.5 "caution".

Why are you testing nitrite??

 

[jts813]

I would say don't be "that girl" then. Sorry it's hard to tell tone when people write but I would suggest having a little more tact in your responses. I mean we've already acknowledged that my tank was stocked too quickly/too much. What would be more helpful is either to say you agree or even better explain to me optimal stocking. Likely how many inches per gallon or how often to add fish. Also, why do you need to ask me again why I am testing for nitrite. You already responded previously that I don't need to use test strips anymore or test for ammonia and nitrite. It's part of the test strip panel. Anyway, I wanted to test to see if I overloaded and that even though my tank is cycled if the overload caused a spike in ammonia and nitrites. So while I thought your prior comment was insightful that I didn't need to test ammonia and nitrite any more on a cycled tank, your more recent tone just seems rude. Most people have been very nice when newcomers like me make dumb mistakes. But your tone seems discouraging to me. It's like why would I want to participate in this message board if this is how people act.

 

[EeyoreIsMySpiritAnimal]

I would say don't be "that girl" then. Sorry it's hard to tell tone when people write but I would suggest having a little more tact in your responses. I mean we've already acknowledged that my tank was stocked too quickly/too much. What would be more helpful is either to say you agree or even better explain to me optimal stocking. Likely how many inches per gallon or how often to add fish. Also, why do you need to ask me again why I am testing for nitrite. You already responded previously that I don't need to use test strips anymore or test for ammonia and nitrite. It's part of the test strip panel. Anyway, I wanted to test to see if I overloaded and that even though my tank is cycled if the overload caused a spike in ammonia and nitrites. So while I thought your prior comment was insightful that I didn't need to test ammonia and nitrite any more on a cycled tank, your more recent tone just seems rude. Most people have been very nice when newcomers like me make dumb mistakes. But your tone seems discouraging to me. It's like why would I want to participate in this message board if this is how people act.

Sorry if you were offended by some of my posts. Glad you found others helpful.