Emperor Quit Eating

[BigMax]

Background - 70 gallon QT tank with external filter set up 75 days ago fully cycled:
0 Ammonia
0 Nitrite
15-20 ppm nitrate
33 ppt salinity
8.3 PH
Low lighting
Medium powerhead for circulation

I received the fish 3.5 weeks ago from Dr. Reef (fully quarantined) the fish looked great, absolutely feel that everything on their end was first rate. Fish ate spirulina flakes, mysis and finely chopped wild caught shrimp vigorously for first 2 weeks. As an omnivore I fed flakes first followed by mysis or shrimp in same feeding. The last week each feeding it ate less followed by eating nothing at all the last 7 days. I pulled an encrusted live rock out of my reef tank ( a little bigger than a softball) and added to the tank to see if he'd pick at it, he does, but very sparingly.

Breathing is prefect, slow even respiration rate, both gills. The only thing I noticed was trailing fecal matter, dark in color, which leads me to believe we have an intestinal problem? I did perform a freshwater dip; 5 minutes; same PH and temp five days ago...no change. I'm now considering performing a 20% water change and trying PraziPro. I don't believe it's flukes but it's hard to do nothing. It's a beautiful 6" adult and hard to see it waste away. It's constantly swimming, out and about, in proper fashion as well, just not eating.

Is the PraziPro worth a shot?

 

[Jay Hemdal]

That's an odd situation. Do you know the collection source for this fish? Adult emperors from the Philippines and Indonesia tend to have more issues with cyanide collection that do others. That said, issues with cyanide generally show up within a few weeks, 45 days on the outside.

Does the fish show ANY reaction to food in the water?
If you post a video, I might see something......

The fecal issue is perhaps a clue. Most internal diseases/starvation cause white mucus feces, but any time you see trailing feces, that indicates excess mucus. Here is some text that I wrote on mucus feces:

Excess mucus in fish feces:

This will present as white or light colored, stringy fecal material that often hangs from the fish’s anus for a longer than normal period. There are a number of different causes for this, some benign, others very serious. Without access to a microscope, there is little that can be done to diagnose this issue effectively.

Idiopathic mucus feces: this fancy term is just to describe white mucoid bulky feces of no serious consequence, but of an unknown cause. Some suspicion is that this can be caused by changes in diet or diets high in fats.

Starvation: Fish that have no food moving through their bowels may excrete white mucoid feces with little bulk to them. The primary diagnostic for this issue is evident in that the fish won’t been seen to be eating. Resolving the anorexia is of course the prime focus to resolve this issue.

Bacterial infection: internal bacterial infections can cause stringy feces as well. While some of these may resolve on their own, medicated foods containing a broad spectrum, gram negative oral antibiotic may be required.

Metazoan infections: multicellular worms are often blamed for mucoid feces, but in reality, they are almost never the root cause for this, and really, can only be diagnosed through looking for their ova in fecal samples. Fish can harbor tapeworms and nematodes without producing mucoid feces.

Protozoan infection: Hexamita and related diplomonad flagellate protozoans very frequently cause white stringy feces, especially in newly acquired clownfish. Metronidazole is the most frequent treatment for this issue. It can be dosed orally at 25 mg per kg of fish body weight, or 5 g in a kg of food. However, it is a very bitter medication, and some fish will refuse to feed on food containing it. It can be dosed in the water at 25 mg/l, but this is more effective in treating marine fishes, as freshwater fish do not “drink” aquarium water.

Coccidia: These microscopic, spore-forming, single-celled parasites are common diseases in dogs and cats. In fish, they cause epithelial necrosis of the gut, enteritis and the copious production of mucus (Noga 2010). These cannot be diagnosed without microscopic examination, and there is no well researched cure for this in fishes, although Toltrazuril has been tested.

Constipation: This malady is often given as a cause for stringy feces, but it is not as common as one would think. When it is seen, the feces are usually dark, not light in color. Often touted as a “cure for constipation”, many aquarists add Epsom salts (magnesium sulfate) to the aquarium’s water – do not do this in marine aquariums, its use is primarily as a tonic/dip for freshwater fish. Seawater formulas already contain between 7 and 19 grams of magnesium sulfate per gallon (depending on the recipe). NSW magnesium level is around 1200 ppm and sulfur is around 840 ppm. Some benefit might be seen using it as a dip in additional concentrations, but adding a small amount to a marine aquarium itself has no benefit. Epsom salts do have some possible benefit when mixed into the food as a 3% by weight adjunct. Another commonly heard remedy for constipation is; “feed fresh peas”. This is an effective cure for fancy goldfish and Malawi cichlids that develop constipation and bloating. Again, overextrapolation has marine aquarists trying to feed peas to carnivorous fish, etc. The best method to enhance gut motility in fish is to feed frozen adult brine shrimp – not as a permanent diet, just long enough to get the constipation resolved.

Jay

 

[BigMax]

That's an odd situation. Do you know the collection source for this fish? Adult emperors from the Philippines and Indonesia tend to have more issues with cyanide collection that do others. That said, issues with cyanide generally show up within a few weeks, 45 days on the outside.

Does the fish show ANY reaction to food in the water?
If you post a video, I might see something......

The fecal issue is perhaps a clue. Most internal diseases/starvation cause white mucus feces, but any time you see trailing feces, that indicates excess mucus. Here is some text that I wrote on mucus feces:

Excess mucus in fish feces:

This will present as white or light colored, stringy fecal material that often hangs from the fish’s anus for a longer than normal period. There are a number of different causes for this, some benign, others very serious. Without access to a microscope, there is little that can be done to diagnose this issue effectively.

Idiopathic mucus feces: this fancy term is just to describe white mucoid bulky feces of no serious consequence, but of an unknown cause. Some suspicion is that this can be caused by changes in diet or diets high in fats.

Starvation: Fish that have no food moving through their bowels may excrete white mucoid feces with little bulk to them. The primary diagnostic for this issue is evident in that the fish won’t been seen to be eating. Resolving the anorexia is of course the prime focus to resolve this issue.

Bacterial infection: internal bacterial infections can cause stringy feces as well. While some of these may resolve on their own, medicated foods containing a broad spectrum, gram negative oral antibiotic may be required.

Metazoan infections: multicellular worms are often blamed for mucoid feces, but in reality, they are almost never the root cause for this, and really, can only be diagnosed through looking for their ova in fecal samples. Fish can harbor tapeworms and nematodes without producing mucoid feces.

Protozoan infection: Hexamita and related diplomonad flagellate protozoans very frequently cause white stringy feces, especially in newly acquired clownfish. Metronidazole is the most frequent treatment for this issue. It can be dosed orally at 25 mg per kg of fish body weight, or 5 g in a kg of food. However, it is a very bitter medication, and some fish will refuse to feed on food containing it. It can be dosed in the water at 25 mg/l, but this is more effective in treating marine fishes, as freshwater fish do not “drink” aquarium water.

Coccidia: These microscopic, spore-forming, single-celled parasites are common diseases in dogs and cats. In fish, they cause epithelial necrosis of the gut, enteritis and the copious production of mucus (Noga 2010). These cannot be diagnosed without microscopic examination, and there is no well researched cure for this in fishes, although Toltrazuril has been tested.

Constipation: This malady is often given as a cause for stringy feces, but it is not as common as one would think. When it is seen, the feces are usually dark, not light in color. Often touted as a “cure for constipation”, many aquarists add Epsom salts (magnesium sulfate) to the aquarium’s water – do not do this in marine aquariums, its use is primarily as a tonic/dip for freshwater fish. Seawater formulas already contain between 7 and 19 grams of magnesium sulfate per gallon (depending on the recipe). NSW magnesium level is around 1200 ppm and sulfur is around 840 ppm. Some benefit might be seen using it as a dip in additional concentrations, but adding a small amount to a marine aquarium itself has no benefit. Epsom salts do have some possible benefit when mixed into the food as a 3% by weight adjunct. Another commonly heard remedy for constipation is; “feed fresh peas”. This is an effective cure for fancy goldfish and Malawi cichlids that develop constipation and bloating. Again, overextrapolation has marine aquarists trying to feed peas to carnivorous fish, etc. The best method to enhance gut motility in fish is to feed frozen adult brine shrimp – not as a permanent diet, just long enough to get the constipation resolved.

Jay

Thanks Jay! I do not know where the fish is from but likely it is the Philippines or Indonesia. My experience in the past, we're talking decades ago , was that cyanide poisoning was usually accompanied by rapid breathing, at least in the later stages, none of that to this point. When I get a proper view the gills appear to be red. I honestly don't remember if that's typical? But again breathing rate is slow and steady.

No reaction to food in the water.

I'm in that trap where I want to try something, hence the Prazi as it's easy to use within his current environment. Although it's absolutely a shot in the dark,

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Thanks Jay! I do not know where the fish is from but likely it is the Philippines or Indonesia. My experience in the past, we're talking decades ago , was that cyanide poisoning was usually accompanied by rapid breathing, at least in the later stages, none of that to this point. When I get a proper view the gills appear to be red. I honestly don't remember if that's typical? But again breathing rate is slow and steady.

No reaction to food in the water.

I'm in that trap where I want to try something, hence the Prazi as it's easy to use within his current environment. Although it's absolutely a shot in the dark,

Cyanide causes multiple organ issues, so the symptoms are varied. Most often seen is anorexia. Sometimes the fish just up and die. As I said though, the time frame here is really on the long side for cyanide issues.
Prazi is worth a shot here…

 

[LiverockRocks]

Have you tried clams in the shell? Fresh macroalgae?

 

[BigMax]

Have you tried clams in the shell? Fresh macroalgae?

Late follow-up but thanks for the thought. Hikari clams are not available anywhere, so I went to a local seafood store and bought some live clams, the fish devours them. The clams are the only thing he'll touch, but it's a step in the right direction. Good idea!

 

[LiverockRocks]

Late follow-up but thanks for the thought. Hikari clams are not available anywhere, so I went to a local seafood store and bought some live clams, the fish devours them. The clams are the only thing he'll touch, but it's a step in the right direction. Good idea!

Check out bulk live clams at Costco.
Place the clams in the freezer and thaw right before feeding the Emp.

 

[BigMax]

Cyanide causes multiple organ issues, so the symptoms are varied. Most often seen is anorexia. Sometimes the fish just up and die. As I said though, the time frame here is really on the long side for cyanide issues.
Prazi is worth a shot here…

Jay, thanks for your help. The gentleman from Liverocks Tampa, gave me some good advice. The clams were something that got the fish eating again, and over a few days of eating a little more each day, he now devours the clams, but only clams at this point.

I simultaneously treated the fish with PraziPro, which was 8 days ago now. I'm considering just performing a 20% water change and leaving it at that. My question to you is: would you suggest another round of Prazi in conjunction? If it's not too stressful on the fish, it may be warranted as a just in case?

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Jay, thanks for your help. The gentleman from Liverocks Tampa, gave me some good advice. The clams were something that got the fish eating again, and over a few days of eating a little more each day, he now devours the clams, but only clams at this point.

I simultaneously treated the fish with PraziPro, which was 8 days ago now. I'm considering just performing a 20% water change and leaving it at that. My question to you is: would you suggest another round of Prazi in conjunction? If it's not too stressful on the fish, it may be warranted as a just in case?

You should always dose prazipro twice, often 3 times is needed to break the life cycle of any eggs. Some fluke species are live bearers, and one dose can kill those, but many flukes are egg layers.