Banggai Cardinalfish to be banned!? Even aquacultured ones!?

[Townes_Van_Camp]

I don’t think NOAA should be taking our selfish opinions nor environments lobbyist opinions when coming to a science based decision.

Just because we have reef tanks does not mean we should get whatever we want. If we can’t reliably trust exporters to only send fish from the farms, then you have to remove the flow of fish completely.

Aqua-cultured coral and fish are abundant. Our hobby is not “less” because we don’t have free reign to keep whatever we want.

The NOAA needs to worry about weather. The ATF needs to worry about alcohol tobacco and fire arms, FDA? Food and drugs.

The NOAA needs to find it's way out of this let the department of agriculture or fish and wildlife handle this.

The NOAA is an enforcement agency. They are not a law creation agency.

 

[Townes_Van_Camp]

That's the process that the government has created for environmental reviews. Public comment periods for these things is routine. Not having a public comment period would probably make the proposed rules to be challenged and stuck down in court.

This is a long known tactic. Just because they have been doing something illegal for a long time doesn't make it right.

They had public comments. They were hidden from the masses and drowned in bot responses in support of the agency and their control. This is how it goes.

There is never a vote on this stuff. They do it, then wait for it to go to court.

 

[Lebowski_]

Here's the science and the report given by NOAA. A bunch of flailing and misinformed hippy reactionaries? Far from it, knowledgable people with the best of the best data, making decisions based on what would benefit wild fish and the economy. NOAA is an agency which I trust, making sound decisions.

https://www.fisheries.noaa.gov/s3/2023-08/DRAFT-EA-Banggai-cardinalfish.pdf

Just read this - thank you for posting.

 

[Lebowski_]

The NOAA needs to worry about weather. The ATF needs to worry about alcohol tobacco and fire arms, FDA? Food and drugs.

The NOAA needs to find it's way out of this let the department of agriculture or fish and wildlife handle this.

The NOAA is an enforcement agency. They are not a law creation agency.

It appears from this draft: https://www.fisheries.noaa.gov/s3/2023-08/DRAFT-EA-Banggai-cardinalfish.pdf
…that NOAA is proposing alternative B, not creating a law.

 

[KrisReef]

Good evening,

Thank you for the dialog surrounding the Banggai Cardinalfish and proposed ban on import and export of Banggai cardinalfish into and out of the U.S. regardless of the source, which includes aquacultured (farmed or captive bred) fish.

The trade recognized the need well over a decade ago, and worked to establish large, commercial aquaculture farms overseas to reduce the pressure on this species which has a very restricted range in Indonesia.

The vast majority of Banggai Cardinalfish available in the U.S. are from overseas aquaculture farms, the largest of which is located in Taiwan, and produces thousands of aquacultured Banggai per month.

While aquaculture does in fact exists in the U.S. for the species, it is only a very small fraction of total volume. Domestic production at scale is very difficult, being labor and space intensive, and will therefore likely never grow cost effectively to meet demand.

I hope this adds a bit more clarity to this discussion, and for additional insight on this topic I encourage interested individuals to read a recent article by Vincent Chalias who lives in Indonesia and has extensive knowledge about this species and the plight of the Banggai Cardinalfish. https://www.reef2rainforest.com/2023/08/22/are-banggai-cardinals-depleted-in-the-wild/

Kevin Kohen
Quality Marine
Los Angeles, CA

Thanks for posting.

Also, the prohibition on trade of endangered species prohibits trade across state lines of species the end up listed-banned. What this means is that a person in Florida could breed these fishes but not sell them outside of Florida without risking the wrath of the Federal government confiscating the entire breeding operation and next the IRS would swoop in, and in the end a legitimate (in my understanding of freedom) fish breeder in Florida would be banned from seeling to Mr. Kohen at Quality Marine. He has indicated that he has been making money (hopefully) importing captive bred fishes. That will end if NOAA doesn't get some push back to let them know that we understand that they are getting ready to make a rule the doesn't pass the smell test and that we are onto their stink.

SO this isn't a Bill going through congress, it's a rule made by an office in NOAA that is catering to other interest groups that may have donated in past elections to soften the ear of THe BIG GUY and he has asked NOAA to look into this. I don't know this is true, but that is what it looks like to me. And as mentioned before, it's stinks.

If they can only be poached then they will disappear from the wild faster from the lucrative illegal trade. This will not protect them, it just stands to hurt the hobby. Captive breeding is better protectiong, imo.

 

[Lebowski_]

Thanks for posting.

Also, the prohibition on trade of endangered species prohibits trade across state lines of species the end up listed-banned. What this means is that a person in Florida could breed these fishes but not sell them outside of Florida without risking the wrath of the Federal government confiscating the entire breeding operation and next the IRS would swoop in, and in the end a legitimate (in my understanding of freedom) fish breeder in Florida would be banned from seeling to Mr. Kohen at Quality Marine. He has indicated that he has been making money (hopefully) importing captive bred fishes. That will end if NOAA doesn't get some push back to let them know that we understand that they are getting ready to make a rule the doesn't pass the smell test and that we are onto their stink.

SO this isn't a Bill going through congress, it's a rule made by an office in NOAA that is catering to other interest groups that may have donated in past elections to soften the ear of THe BIG GUY and he has asked NOAA to look into this. I don't know this is true, but that is what it looks like to me. And as mentioned before, it's stinks.

If they can only be poached then they will disappear from the wild faster from the lucrative illegal trade. This will not protect them, it just stands to hurt the hobby. Captive breeding is better protectiong, imo.

The proposal made by NOAA specifically recommends not banning interstate trade.

You would still be free to breed and trade within the US.

Not everything is a government conspiracy. Some hobbyists are willing to make small sacrifices for the betterment of natural reefs long term. Mr Kohen stands to lose some $$$ is my guess, weird that you are so supportive of him but are so quick to call opposition a conspiracy.

 

[jda]

I am OK with Banggai being only sold captive bred in the USA. If this is what it takes to limit wild collection of an endangered species, then so be it. I am not scared that doing this for Banggai would mean that non-endangered stuff would get gobbled up later.

This suggestion flat out wants to support captive breeding for sale inside of the US. I know that any ownership or sale is true for some endangered species (gila monsters, I think), but this is not the proposal here.

 

[KrisReef]

Just read this - thank you for posting.

Thanks for reading it, and thanks for reading and summarizing this so well, @Anemone_Fanatic.

I came to the same conclusion, shoddy work and slanted reporting, rushing to ban the trade.

Sorry folks, I gotta answer another call atm.

 

[Townes_Van_Camp]

It appears from this draft: https://www.fisheries.noaa.gov/s3/2023-08/DRAFT-EA-Banggai-cardinalfish.pdf
…that NOAA is proposing alternative B, not creating a law.

Nevermind.

Point is that nobody is bothered by aquacultured bangai cardinals.

People are bothered by the openendedness of the idea as written. Rightly so.

 

[Lebowski_]

And if it's not a law how will it be enforced?

That document is a proposal. If it’s made law, then it will be enforced.

 

[Townes_Van_Camp]

That document is a proposal. If it’s made law, then it will be enforced.

I edited. There is no way senate and Congress ever see this. Unless it is crammed into an unrelated funding bill.

 

[Lebowski_]

I edited. There is no way senate and Congress ever see this. Unless it is crammed into an unrelated funding bill.

Senate and Congress?

This is an at risk species, it’s being proposed that export and import is banned. I don’t think they need Joe Biden rubber stamping this one. Unfortunately, it will hurt the importer mentioned in the proposal. That’s unfortunate. Life hits us all with unfortunate turns. Sometimes the good of the community is more important than the good of the individual. And I think we all wanted to see Cardinal populations recover.

Government watchdogs are key to democracy, but they are only useful when they are not made bias by their own beliefs. I think a lot of the outrage around this comes from people who stand to lose, or people who have a bone to pick with government organizations in general.

 

[jda]

These fish are listed as endangered by IUCN. Don't die on this hill. If we never see another Banggai for sale ever again, it is probably the right thing to do. Complain about this too much and then that is the ammo for folks that want to ban all wild collection.

IMO, the most likely outcome is captive bred only in the USA and EU, AQ going to the rest of the world and nobody taking the time to fish Banggai Islands anymore without being able to import to USA and Europe. Your CB Banggai will be $50 instead of $20 and more people will breed them until the prices come down.

For at least 20 years, I have heard about their populations dwindling. This most likely should have happened long ago.

 

[Lebowski_]

These fish are listed as endangered by IUCN. Don't die on this hill. If we never see another Banggai for sale ever again, it is probably the right thing to do. Complain about this too much and then that is the ammo for folks that want to ban all wild collection.

IMO, the most likely outcome is captive bred only in the USA and EU, AQ going to the rest of the world and nobody taking the time to fish Banggai Islands anymore without being able to import to USA and Europe. Your CB Banggai will be $50 instead of $20 and more people will breed them until the prices come down.

For at least 20 years, I have heard about their populations dwindling. This most likely should have happened long ago.

Well said. This is not the hill to die on. We don’t need people seeing this hobby as an enemy.

 

[Townes_Van_Camp]

Senate and Congress?

This is an at risk species, it’s being proposed that export and import is banned. I don’t think they need Joe Biden rubber stamping this one. Unfortunately, it will hurt the importer mentioned in the proposal. That’s unfortunate. Life hits us all with unfortunate turns. Sometimes the good of the community is more important than the good of the individual. And I think we all wanted to see Cardinal populations recover.

Government watchdogs are key to democracy, but they are only useful when they are not made bias by their own beliefs. I think a lot of the outrage around this comes from people who stand to lose, or people who have a bone to pick with government organizations in general.

Laws are created by Congress. Senate and Biden also have to do their thing.

Any circumventionkf this to defer to NOAA's recs is illegal law making.

I like.you but you are big wrong on this. Big government is the antithesis to democracy.

 

[F i s h y]

Lots of politics and conjecture in this thread...

I've been breeding these for years. Currently have 3 spawns that I'm growing out in my refugium of my reef. I do nothing special to raise them. Importing wild caught specimens is irresponsible at this time.

No the numbers aren't in the realm of "commercial " but enough that local hobbyist are able to get some from time to time and I sell them at $15 a peice.

 

[jda]

Agencies can be given charter and purposed by congress get to act within that charter. There are several agencies with charter to regulate certain types of IUCN classified species and they certainly do not a new senate committee meeting or vote to do their jobs.

My profession has a chartered agency from the US House of Reps to make sure that valuation is regulated and has uniform standards. Every two years, they update those regulations and uniform standards and you can bet that they don't go back and ask congress to vote on it. It is part of their charter to draft, gets comments, revise and pass those new uniform standards.

This actually is democracy since the charter was established by people who were elected. It does not cease to be democracy because somebody does not agree with it. Those folks can be voted out and the new folks could revoke or change the charter. I know that it is trendy now to say that things that we don't like are unconstitutional or anti democratic, but it is rarely the case.

 

[Townes_Van_Camp]

Lots of politics and conjecture in this thread...

I've been breeding these for years. Currently have 3 spawns that I'm growing out in my refugium of my reef. I do nothing special to raise them. Importing wild caught specimens is irresponsible at this time.

No the numbers aren't in the realm of "commercial " but enough that local hobbyist are able to get some from time to time and I sell them at $15 a peice.

I suspect every poster here is ok with banning imports. So long as the language is included to keep it from being openended or encroaching on domestic aquaculture.

Ban lists vs approved lists aren't a triffle.

 

[BroccoliFarmer]

Interesting...seems like this thread got pretty heavily censored. Always interesting to see what is allowable vs cut from here.

 

[Daniel@R2R]

Interesting...seems like this thread got pretty heavily censored. Always interesting to see what is allowable vs cut from here.

I am confused by this post. I actually just went back through to check. I did have to make a post asking people to keep the discussion civil (which people seem to have done since then), but there have been no posts removed and no mod actions in here.