Bayer pesticide as a coral dip...stop it! smh

[fishboys]

https://www.google.com/?gws_rd=ssl#q="bayer"+"coral+dip"

1500 hits doesn't support that guess.. Maybe there's just not enough people relaying their stellar success!

If you are trying to tell me that 10,000 people and 1,000,000 corals have not been dip in Bayer your wrong. But if you want to only believe your results and a handful of other vs the masses your free to do so. I guess I am of the mind set that numbers don't lie.

After dipping your corals did you test the Bayer you used on your corals? Maybe the lid hadn't been put on tight and what you were dipping then in was in fact a concentration of Bayer? Do you have proof this isn't the case? If not then your point is mute. We need proof of this you should know that.

 

[spllbnd2]

Following along.

 

[Kungpaoshizi]

The only beef I got with Bayer is that it doesn't treat bacterial infections, but still I use Bayer since it's less stressful on SPS. I remember a time when I dipped a millie in Bayer, still has its PE. Do the same in ReVive, I lose PE.
Also, Bayer saved my tank from AEFW, so I thank Bayer for it.

This makes plenty of sense. It's a neurotoxin! lol
If you're instantly paralyzed, you'll be in the position you were.

 

[Kungpaoshizi]

Your response is the epitome of what you were accusing people of doing to you, being disrespectful. It's not respectful to use the tone you're using and immoral to quote a small excerpt of a big response.

And the way people are treating me is better?

The reason I did not read the rest is because your first sentence is completely wrong.

I also believe nobody says anything is because they know people will chime in, defending something they chose to use, with zero logical evidence other than 'abunch of people use it and it works! ya!'

Not my problem for the way people act.

 

[Kungpaoshizi]

Please stop with these vast generalizations and over simplification by throwing out phrases like "its toxic because it is a neurotoxin and corals have nerves".

Please stop with these vast generalizations and over simplifications by throwing out phrases like "we know it doesn't affect corals because abunch of people have dipped them in bayer, and every single coral is the same".

 

[Shep]

Alright guys, I'm done talking to you all.
You accuse me of being a jerk, yet all of you are spewing nonsense. You have no proof, you never did, you don't even have statistics of success vs failures. You ignore failures.

You are the problem with the hobby.

Not my fault most of what I'm referring to is too confusing for most and then you expect me to defend points from all of your trash talking?

Get some brains.

I'll post more about the compounds and what I can find, but send me a PM if you actually want to talk, the trolls are heavy here. (trolls with no evidence to prove a GD thing)

Some of you were decent in this talk, but most are just concerned with defending their honor... /shrug Not my problem.

Oh, and how I really feel about it? After having listened to you and being burned by watching corals die, I do not use anything not made for the hobby or that isn't vetted. So that one guy, ya. Otherwise to use bayer without any tests or experiments looking at cellular function, tissue samples, etc. You need more help than I can give you.

Oh, and obviously since the thread has been contaminated by crap. Please only post pro's/cons, or statistical data, or cite references. Your opinions were never requested. (it was a simple job.. )

And as far as closing the thread, the only reason you're asking for that is because you have no contradictory evidence. What better way to snuff out the bad experiences or try to eliminate the big shadow of doubt about it?

.......you never offered any real proof

 

[Kungpaoshizi]

.......you never offered any real proof

Only responding because you're a mod.

I posted proof of the following given by the research articles/etc:
It interacts with resistances in arthropods
It interacts with nerves
It's effects spans across multiple phylums
It's effects spans across multiple species
It does not rinse off well as it's purpose is to waterproof
It does not degrade right away

(if we're counting anecdotal evidence as fact)
It causes paralysis of the coral (polyps out in a dip, ya right, contractile cells cannot do their job if you interrupt their signals)
It can cause bleaching
It can cause necrosis
It doesn't kill all the pests

I'm sure there's more, but people just seem to want to 'defend their decisions' vs looking for contradictory evidence. Thus = arguments.

Oh, but the number one truth of this all, nobody knows all of the effects on the coral. Period. (given the number of creatures it affects, probability is not on the pro-bayer side for harmless interaction; apologies that I actually care about that part)

 

[andrewey]

Kungpaoshizi- my humble suggestion is that you (and the community at large) simply walk away from this discussion. Reef2Reef is supposed to be a friendly place to exchange ideas and for whatever reason, whether it's the topic, you, or the community at large, this thread has devolved into a mean spirited attack back and forth. My advice? Walk away and if you don't want to use bayer, don't. For those that do, they will and they'll live with whatever consequences there are. I appreciate that you might be trying to be a prophet to preach to the masses, but from the overwhelming response, your preaching isn't appreciated. It's not necessarily that you're doing anything wrong/right, it's just the pulse of what's happening. So don't sweat it. Keep reefing- enjoy life and be happy. No need for such animosity from either side

 

[Kungpaoshizi]

Kungpaoshizi- my humble suggestion is that you (and the community at large) simply walk away from this discussion. Reef2Reef is supposed to be a friendly place to exchange ideas and for whatever reason, whether it's the topic, you, or the community at large, this thread has devolved into a mean spirited attack back and forth. My advice? Walk away and if you don't want to use bayer, don't. For those that do, they will and they'll live with whatever consequences there are. I appreciate that you might be trying to be a prophet to preach to the masses, but from the overwhelming response, your preaching isn't appreciated. It's not necessarily that you're doing anything wrong/right, it's just the pulse of what's happening. So don't sweat it. Keep reefing- enjoy life and be happy. No need for such animosity from either side

Trying really hard not to feed the trolls(not you), but I understand where you're coming from.
But doing nothing is worse than walking away. Meanwhile corals are the organisms that suffer. I will not stand for that. Through this, I even wiped the slate clean to eliminate my experience. It didn't matter and people still discounted my experience just like the others I've seen relay bad experiences. I offered people back their claims up, I believe the only thing I've seen is someone write up a few discrepancies of dose. But otherwise nobody else wants to put on their adult-pants and dig into the data.

I don't sweat it though, eventually there will be undeniable proof presented. I would say for or against, but the meat of it all points towards it's bad stuff that should not be used, and nobody has presented anything else which further reinforces the mass mentality.

 

[Tahoe61]

You accuse me of being a jerk, yet all of you are spewing nonsense. You have no proof, you never did, you don't even have statistics of success vs failures. You ignore failures.

Lets get the facts straight no one member has referred to you as such.

You have had your podium to accuse everyone else of trolling.

This is a public forum, you are not immune to comments that challenge your assumptions, but you do not get to label all dissenters as trolls.

If you continue down this path this thread will be closed. Move away from the personal attacks and stick to the debate.

 

[Shep]

Trying really hard not to feed the trolls(not you), but I understand where you're coming from.
But doing nothing is worse than walking away. Meanwhile corals are the organisms that suffer. I will not stand for that. Through this, I even wiped the slate clean to eliminate my experience. It didn't matter and people still discounted my experience just like the others I've seen relay bad experiences. I offered people back their claims up, I believe the only thing I've seen is someone write up a few discrepancies of dose. But otherwise nobody else wants to put on their adult-pants and dig into the data.

I don't sweat it though, eventually there will be undeniable proof presented. I would say for or against, but the meat of it all points towards it's bad stuff that should not be used, and nobody has presented anything else which further reinforces the mass mentality.

This will be the last time I respond to this thread but you never offered real proof, you cited Wikipedia which does not count as a source, you never posted peer reviewed published journals, you never provided statistics that showed the outcome of bayer vs other dips, you never showed controlled experiments that showed how harmful bayer is to corals, all you did was provide your personal theory on why it would harm corals. I am neither saying your theory is right or wrong but do not bash others for doing what you are doing. If you did provide this and I missed please feel free to quote them again and I will leave it at that.

 

[Diesel]

Ok, lets get this going......
Now that Kungwhatever is lurking in the back ground let us post some pics up from our tanks from ppl who dipped with Bayer.
Let the pics (evidence) roll as that's one way to stay positive.
No one can proof any evidence on the moment what bayer does and if it was that bad why is it in the stores?
I have a pest control license and there are far more chemicals on the market that can be much more damaging to us when in wrong hands but it kills AEFW as fast as any other pest.
Looking forward to some pics guys.

 

[Kungpaoshizi]

Ok, lets get this going......
Now that Kungwhatever is lurking in the back ground let us post some pics up from our tanks from ppl who dipped with Bayer.
Let the pics (evidence) roll as that's one way to stay positive.
No one can proof any evidence on the moment what bayer does and if it was that bad why is it in the stores?
I have a pest control license and there are far more chemicals on the market that can be much more damaging to us when in wrong hands but it kills AEFW as fast as any other pest.
Looking forward to some pics guys.

Pics of a tank do not equal it's 100% passive.
Perhaps I should dig up pics of the necrosis after dipping in bayer!
That doesn't prove anything either.

Under that premise a picture of a car that is not damaged proves it's a better car than one's that have been in an accident.

Also please change my name in that post, personal attacks are not necessary.

 

[Diesel]

Pics of a tank do not equal it's 100% passive.
Perhaps I should dig up pics of the necrosis after dipping in bayer!
That doesn't prove anything either.

Under that premise a picture of a car that is not damaged proves it's a better car than one's that have been in an accident.

What more proof do you want from 1" frags that now are 8" colonies after 3 years?
And why did YOU use it?
You did use it without out any research and just went blind on others who used with success and IMO your error in loss of coral is our fault.
This is a never ending debate and you know that.
Nobody has a win in this debate only positive is you get rid of pest on corals and you won't harm anything with it.

 

[Daniel@R2R]

Pics of tanks are proof that the tanks are thriving even after Bayer has been used. It reflects that no long-term negative effects are observed.

 

[Kungpaoshizi]

Pics of tanks are proof that the tanks are thriving even after Bayer has been used. It reflects that no long-term negative effects are observed.

It does not prove that. There could be long-term damage inside. Your pics don't show that.
A clear example of an unscientific mentality.

 

[Kungpaoshizi]

What more proof do you want from 1" frags that now are 8" colonies after 3 years?
And why did YOU use it?
You did use it without out any research and just went blind on others who used with success and IMO your error in loss of coral is our fault.
This is a never ending debate and you know that.
Nobody has a win in this debate only positive is you get rid of pest on corals and you won't harm anything with it.

I used it originally after visiting many bayer posts and averaging the doses used, I even then reduced dose by half.
Don't pretend to know what my routines are.

 

[Daniel@R2R]

It does not prove that. There could be long-term damage inside. Your pics don't show that.
A clear example of an unscientific mentality.

Please note the words "reflects" "observed" in the response you quoted.

A clear example of your misrepresentation of others' words.

 

[Kungpaoshizi]

Please note the words "reflects" "observed" in the response you quoted.

A clear example of your misrepresentation of others' words.

Misrepresentation?
So please tell me how a picture from a camera shows nerve damage? Cellular dysfunction? How about bioaccumulation of toxins? Reduced growth rates? Photosynthetic degradation? Abnormal skeletal structure? Abnormal tissue growth?
Symbiont interactions?
I could go on, but you get the point.

 

[Diesel]

That statement is for us to assume you did what you said you did, but it has a lot of grey area IMO.
But for now to make it easy to all we assume and it didn't work out for you.
Lets move on, Bayer isn't for you, to bad but there are other methods you can use.