Bayer pesticide as a coral dip...stop it! smh

[Kungpaoshizi]

1. Not as Effective as Bayer
2. Other Dips are More Stressful on Coral
.

Again, you have zero evidence or supporting statistics.

 

[Starblenny]

1. Not as Effective as Bayer
2. Other Dips are More Stressful on Coral
3. Bayer is Cheaper

No Reason Not to use Bayer.

The only beef I got with Bayer is that it doesn't treat bacterial infections, but still I use Bayer since it's less stressful on SPS. I remember a time when I dipped a millie in Bayer, still has its PE. Do the same in ReVive, I lose PE.
Also, Bayer saved my tank from AEFW, so I thank Bayer for it.

 

[morpheas]

Aaaaaand no. In a couple minutes of reading, even on this forum, I documented 4 losses that were deemed "a mystery" but not bayer's fault.

Your response is the epitome of what you were accusing people of doing to you, being disrespectful. It's not respectful to use the tone you're using and immoral to quote a small excerpt of a big response.

I will point you to the rest of my response quoting the whole thing as you should have done.

You lost me there too buddy. First off, the theory is that Bayer is OK to use. Why? The experiment conducted by hundreds (if not thousands) of reefers show no ill effect when used within the experiment parameters i.e. short term exposure, low concentration, specimen flushing with tank water. Now that's what's concrete. As with any experiment, there are some outliers, in this case, some reports of negative effects. There will always be outliers with any experiment, usually because of mis-application of the experiment parameters (hence the question of how was it applied, concentration, time etc). That's why statistical consistency is the sought after result, which we have in this case.

Again, we're looking at statistical consistency. You found 4 people saying they had a problem which they could not directly attribute to the bayer dip and yet you found:

https://www.google.com/?gws_rd=ssl#q="bayer"+"coral+dip"

1500 hits doesn't support that guess.. Maybe there's just not enough people relaying their stellar success!

1500 hits of "stellar" success. Please address the heart of the issue. We're not here to argue with you, we all want to learn. Again, the heart of the issue is the overwhelming positive effects of usage, in the parameters defined above, despite the few negatives. There is no data to support your claim so you're relying on statistics ("I found 4 saying they had problems") as much as we do ("we know thousands have used it with no ill effects") and the numbers are in Bayer's favor.

 

[6dxb9aph]

3 questions.
'Bayer is not toxic to corals'
1. How do you know it's not toxic to corals? (they have a nervous system and this is a neurotoxin, please describe how the corals negate this)
'Bayer is the least stressful'

It is all about concentration of exposure. Mammals can take an enormous dose of bayer compared to most invertebrates due to enzymes in our body that break down these compounds. Some invertebrates such as common pests in a reef tank cannot handle this as well because they have less means to break them down. Coral is somewhere in the middle between the two as far as ability to break down they compounds. You seem to be assuming that something toxic to one species is therefor also toxic to another, its apples and oranges. If you give a dog a bar of dark chocolate, it makes them sick. Give it to a human and we are fine, because we have an enzyme to break down threonine. Please stop with these vast generalizations and over simplification by throwing out phrases like "its toxic because it is a neurotoxin and corals have nerves". Nervous systems vary greatly in the animal kingdom, and so also do means by which animals take toxins out of their systems.

 

[Shep]

Aaaaaand no. In a couple minutes of reading, even on this forum, I documented 4 losses that were deemed "a mystery" but not bayer's fault.

......4? I am sure most people could find the same thing from the other dips. Even if that is true that bayer killed those four, when compared to the total times used its safer than some modern medicines that we give to humans.

3 questions.
'Bayer is not toxic to corals'
1. How do you know it's not toxic to corals? (they have a nervous system and this is a neurotoxin, please describe how the corals negate this)
'Bayer is the least stressful'
2. Do you have a recording of experiments that describes the test you conducted that compared identical coral frags and their dip process leading to this?
'Bayer is the safest dip'
3. I believe question 2 covers this

1. They actually have a very rudimentary nervous system that is called a nerve net and you have provided no research that states a neurotoxin for an insect will have the same outcome on a coral. I have never researched the way coral signal and transmit impulses or the impact of neurotoxin on coral functioning, care to link some peer reviewed articles on this?

2. Do you have any experiments under controlled conditions that proves your hypothesis? You have listed some theories and Wikipedia searches (which by the way are not even remotely considered a good citation for research) but I have yet to see any hard proof that can be replicated by others. Don't ask for something form someone that you have not provided.

Sorry if I sound rude but people throwing around pseudoscience claims with no proof is a pet peeve of mine.

 

[Shep]

Again, you have zero evidence or supporting statistics.

Do you have any that proves otherwise?

 

[robby2782]

Your response is the epitome of what you were accusing people of doing to you, being disrespectful. It's not respectful to use the tone you're using and immoral to quote a small excerpt of a big response.

I will point you to the rest of my response quoting the whole thing as you should have done.



Again, we're looking at statistical consistency. You found 4 people saying they had a problem which they could not directly attribute to the bayer dip and yet you found:



1500 hits of "stellar" success. Please address the heart of the issue. We're not here to argue with you, we all want to learn. Again, the heart of the issue is the overwhelming positive effects of usage, in the parameters defined above, despite the few negatives. There is no data to support your claim so you're relying on statistics ("I found 4 saying they had problems") as much as we do ("we know thousands have used it with no ill effects") and the numbers are in Bayer's favor.

It's simply because his experience wasn't similar to that of the majority, and can't accept that something didn't survive likely due to user error. So far he's displayed hypocrisy because he stated "he's vehemently against using something not vetted" although he clearly did since he used bayer, and has been supremely condescending to anyone who contradicts him (Including sharing a thread being condescending to Randy Holmes, a respected and credible chemist). This thread should honestly be closed since there's nothing of substance that will change people's mind from using it.

 

[that Reef Guy]

3 questions.
'Bayer is not toxic to corals'
1. How do you know it's not toxic to corals? (they have a nervous system and this is a neurotoxin, please describe how the corals negate this)
'Bayer is the least stressful'
2. Do you have a recording of experiments that describes the test you conducted that compared identical coral frags and their dip process leading to this?
'Bayer is the safest dip'
3. I believe question 2 covers this

1. Because they don't die from it. That is Why. They have a Very Primitive Nervous System that is Immune to Bayer.
2. Yeah, the Hundreds of Frags that I have Dipped in Bayer and the Zillions that other people have Dipped!

 

[that Reef Guy]

I'm sure there's many compounds that work that don't kill the coral. I know from seeing it first hand tap water is an awesome dip. But this still doesn't cover the negatives that can happen, let alone statistics towards chance of death or other factors aside from death.

Right, that is why I do not use Tap, RO Water, or Any other type of Freshwater as a Dip for Coral or Fish.

 

[that Reef Guy]

So how do I interpret this:
The LFS that dips bayer, and the majority of the time I go in, the corals look horrible, dull, and abunch of necrosis all over quite regularly.
Or the LFS that dips RX, the corals look better than the other place, colors are present but not strong, but only rarely has necrosis all over.

So are you going to admit it's possible that bayer could have something to do with it, or are you going to keep your mind closed, and deny the possibility? (and thus assert your place in scientific reasoning)

OMG!!!!!!!

You are Impossible!

I don't know maybe the LFS that uses Bayer

1. Has Inadequate Lighting
2. Has Inadequate Flow
3. Has Alkalinity Spikes
4. Any number of a Million other Things that could affect the Coral.

Bayer Kills Pests!

Nobody said it Guarantees you will have Amazing Super Colorful Corals!

P.S. No, the Bayer has nothing to do with his Problems.

And if He Didn't use Bayer he would have More Problems.

 

[that Reef Guy]

Again, you have zero evidence or supporting statistics.

Yes I do!!!!!!

It is from personal experience and the experience of others.

 

[that Reef Guy]

The only beef I got with Bayer is that it doesn't treat bacterial infections, but still I use Bayer since it's less stressful on SPS. I remember a time when I dipped a millie in Bayer, still has its PE. Do the same in ReVive, I lose PE.
Also, Bayer saved my tank from AEFW, so I thank Bayer for it.

There you go Pal.

There is some evidence from a fellow reefer.

 

[that Reef Guy]

@revhtree

Please Shut This Thread Down as I feel it is going to get real nasty really quickly.

 

[happyhourhero]

 

[Squid]

Until majority of the lfs, coral and fish vendors start telling us to stop using beyer, I'll stick to what the pros know and do. After alll, they dip more coral than any of us will see in our entire lifetime

 

[that Reef Guy]

Another Satisfied Customer

 

[that Reef Guy]

Until majority of the lfs, coral and fish vendors start telling us to stop using beyer, I'll stick to what the pros know and do. After alll, they dip more coral than any of us will see in our entire lifetime

+1

I like what you say.

Listen to the Pros.

 

[Diesel]

I thought this would or could be a powerful thread but I was wrong............ BAYER for President.
Sorry guys but the fumes of the Bayer must be still working my nerve system.

 

[Rybren]

Kungpaoshizi,

As I've mentioned to you in some other threads, you often come up with some interesting ideas that are worth investigating. However, your delivery and approach to discussion leave a lot to be desired.

You seem to have a very big chip on your shoulder and take great offense when someone dares to contradict or disagree with something that you've stated. You start attacking the person rather than the comment or statement that they have made. This approach certainly makes it difficult discuss anything as mature adults.

Please try to approach these discussions in a different way. I'm willing to bet that the entire tone of the thread will change for the better.

By the way, I have no dog in this fight - the Bayer products are banned for sale to general consumers here in Canada. Having said that, I read through almost all of the links and articles that you have provided and while they are interesting reading, I have yet to read anything that would lead me to believe that the Bayer product would have a detrimental effect on corals using the methodologies that reefers employ. That is not to say that there isn't some evidence out there, but it doesn't seem to exist in the links that you have provided.

 

[Elysium]

OMG!!!!!!!

You are Impossible!

I don't know maybe the LFS that uses Bayer

1. Has Inadequate Lighting
2. Has Inadequate Flow
3. Has Alkalinity Spikes
4. Any number of a Million other Things that could affect the Coral.

Bayer Kills Pests!

Nobody said it Guarantees you will have Amazing Super Colorful Corals!

P.S. No, the Bayer has nothing to do with his Problems.

And if He Didn't use Bayer he would have More Problems.

Quiet Occam! Stop bringing your razor into this.