Bayer pesticide as a coral dip...stop it! smh

[dbrewsky]

Just trying to empower you sir- only you can develop methods to test YOUR hypothesis! You will need to provide concrete scientific evidence of Bayer's effects on corals to over throw the overwhelming positive experience that the reef community has already provided. Statistically, your experience of loosing some coral as a direct correlation to Bayer is probably in the 0.0000% of coral that have been successfully dipped and survived for the long term. Going to need concrete evidence to correlate Bayer as a culprit in coral mortality.

 

[hybridazn]

Look into what neurotoxins do.

Look into what radiation will do to the human body when exposed for long periods of time, but with short exposures it will kill cancer cells. Same thing applies with bayer, short exposure kills pests but leaves the coral unharmed. Long term exposure will surely kill the coral, just like any long term exposure to ANY dip labeled for hobby use.

 

[happyhourhero]

What's the proper way to rinse it?

I have had 100% success with having 2 containers of tank water for baths after dipping. in the first tub I blast the coral with turkey baster to knock off any pests that may still be hanging on and to hopefully get the bayer off. I then move to the 2nd tub and let the frags soak for a bit and then blow them off again with the baster and then they go into the tank.

 

[Daniel@R2R]

Not at all. But I did see a trend while using bayer as compared to not.
For a good 3 to 5 frags, they closed and started necrosis within a day or two.

Though again, as much as people want to say nothing happens, or it was my fault. They're ignoring the other possibilities such as, 'I went to the LFS, bought a coral, dipped it, it died'. Whereas I might think my dip or procedure had something to do with it, who's to say it wasn't fresh in the store, had a bayer dip the other day, and then I dipped it again? Only further compounding the stress, resulting in death.

Then, if after identifying these types of things, we could say 'no! bayer did not cause the death. A double dip did!' (but yes, you could speculate that same scenario with other dips)

There's a lot of scenarios like this people are dismissing.

@Kungpaoshizi, perhaps this conversation could become more productive if we try to take it in a different direction. As @dbrewsky, I, and others have pointed out, your results are far different from the overwhelming majority of Bayer users. What do you believe made your results different? Most of us are not experiencing coral loss directly correlated with Bayer use or even seeing negative results in the short or long-term (please note that I did not say there are no negative results...I'm allowing for your hypothesized unseen effects, but proof beyond the hypothesis would be needed to show those are present before most of us would be convinced that it is...I'm saying we don't observe or see any negative results), so why do you think your results are different. For the moment, let's take user error off the table as a reason--we'll assume you did everything right. I'm of the opinion that perhaps the corals were unhealthy to begin with or were stressed from the fragging/transportation/other processes that accompany new additions to any reef, but I'd be willing to hear a hypothesis that accepts the fact that many of us don't experience the same thing you did and yet explains your losses.

What do you think caused it (and why haven't we had similar experiences)?

 

[6dxb9aph]

Look into what neurotoxins do.

This is your basic premise....
Bayer uses the active ingredient beta-cyfluthrin. This is a pyrethroid and as you pointed out earlier it interferes with sodium gated channels in nerves. The problem with assigning this mechanism of action to coral is that coral have developed a nerve net that uses a different type of sodium channel than arthropods or other higher organisms. These channels are voltage dependent and work in an entirely different way then the sodium channels in other classes. Below are some publications that go over these differences. I think this should answer your question about neurotoxins and throw that line of reasoning out of the window.

http://phys.org/news/2012-07-ion-neuronal-channels-evolved-animals.html
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3809514/

 

[that Reef Guy]

Trying really hard not to feed the trolls(not you), but I understand where you're coming from.
But doing nothing is worse than walking away. Meanwhile corals are the organisms that suffer. I will not stand for that. Through this, I even wiped the slate clean to eliminate my experience. It didn't matter and people still discounted my experience just like the others I've seen relay bad experiences. I offered people back their claims up, I believe the only thing I've seen is someone write up a few discrepancies of dose. But otherwise nobody else wants to put on their adult-pants and dig into the data.

I don't sweat it though, eventually there will be undeniable proof presented. I would say for or against, but the meat of it all points towards it's bad stuff that should not be used, and nobody has presented anything else which further reinforces the mass mentality.

Trolls.

Look in the Mirror.

Corals Suffering?

Yeah they are going to suffer from more (Red Bugs, Black Bugs, Nudi's, Flatworms, etc.) because some people are going to read this and not use Bayer.

That is a Huge Huge Disservice to this Hobby which I Spend many many Hours Trying to Both Promote this Awesome Hobby as well as Help People in Need to Keep them in this Hobby because so many get Frustrated and Leave from Bad Advice like the Bad Advice you are Giving.

Undeniable Proof. LOL. You call us Biased but you are the one that is Biased because you are Stating that Someday there will be this Proof that Bayer Kills Corals.

Well Wake up it has been 6 Years and no Problems.

You Think in Year 7 all of our Corals will all Die at Once because they were Bayer Dipped?

I Think Not!

 

[Obsessed]

I have had 100% success with having 2 containers of tank water for baths after dipping. in the first tub I blast the coral with turkey baster to knock off any pests that may still be hanging on and to hopefully get the bayer off. I then move to the 2nd tub and let the frags soak for a bit and then blow them off again with the baster and then they go into the tank.

That's exactly my procedure but with 3 containers of clean water and still got the deaths. My tank isn't that big, just a 50G so maybe that might have something to do with it.

 

[chefjpaul]

That's exactly my procedure but with 3 containers of clean water and still got the deaths. My tank isn't that big, just a 50G so maybe that might have something to do with it.

What were the corals mounted to?

Mari or aqua cultured with the rocks attached?

 

[that Reef Guy]

Will bayer kill these crickets?

Yes. LOL

 

[that Reef Guy]

I've been contemplating different ways to test exposure, wish more people would get off their high-horse and try to come up with ways of testing.
I do not believe though that 'because a lot of people use it' it's ok.
That follows under the arguments as alcohol, cigs, drugs, asbestos, bpa, etc... There's a lot out there that doesn't show any visible effects to our eyes. They had to be investigated with tools other than a single picture that's not micro/macroscopic, cellular analysis, etc.
If I wasn't so logical and scientific, I would just dismiss anyone who uses bayer as completely ______ as I tried it, under the dosages suggested, and some of my corals died.
It's an unexplored area, but just as corals can survive quite a few things, it doesn't mean it's ok.

I keep trying to tell the others, you could dip your coral in tap water, oil (ocean!), all sort of compounds, and I bet the majority would be just fine in appearance.

Seriously your Coral did not Die from Bayer!

Something else did it.

I have Dipped Literally Hundreds of Corals in Bayer and it Didn't Kill Any of them.

I have a Ton of Reefing Friends and Combined Many Many Thousands of Coral have Been Dipped in Bayer by Us.

Not a Single One has Died.

It was something else that Killed your Coral not Bayer!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[evolved]

Alright, I think this stopped being productive on page... 7? Or was it 8?