Bayer pesticide as a coral dip...stop it! smh

[Kungpaoshizi]

I still see some people suggesting it. I tried it over a period of months awhile back, had lots of necrosis events.

I guess these explain why. It also says don't expose pets, etc..

The levels seen from a dip solution are probably far greater than what even the ocean sees, and the ocean is having issues.

I personally was happy to see black sun corals spawn and SUCCESSFULLY settle in my tank. I don't think that would have happened if I had traces of insecticide in the tank. (it's very unrealistic to state you'll get rid of all of the pesticide off the coral by rinsing a few times, someone even stated it is waterproof and requires something like vinegar to neutralize it)

I'll update more from time to time as I find it, if you're aware of anything please add it.
I'm not looking to make this a debate. I think using random compounds, especially that are intended to kill things, as a dip, is just dumb. I used it when I first started because I didn't know any better, now I do.

If you disagree, please share the research that shows it's not toxic.(despite the label)

Cyfluthrin is a pyrethroid insecticide and common household pesticide. It is a complex organic compound and the commercial product is sold as a mixture of isomers. Like most pyrethroids, it is highly toxic to fish, invertebrates, and insects, but it is far less toxic to humans.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyfluthrin

Aquatic life[edit]
Imidacloprid is highly toxic on an acute basis to aquatic invertebrates, with EC50 values = 0.037 - 0.115 ppm. It is also highly toxic to aquatic invertebrates on a chronic basis (effects on growth and movement): NOAEC/LOAEC = 1.8/3.6 ppm in daphnids; NOAEC = 0.001 in Chironomus midge, and NOAEC/LOAEC = 0.00006/0.0013 ppm in mysid shrimp. Its toxicity to fish is relatively low; however, the EPA has requested review of secondary effects on fish with food chains that include sensitive aquatic invertebrates.[13]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imidacloprid


Insecticides and a fungicide affect multiple coral life stages

The risk posed by a toxicant to an organism is the product of sensitivity and potential exposure. Information on the environmental concentrations of insecticides and fungicides in nearshore tropical waters where corals may be exposed is scarce; however, the results from this study suggest that all 4 groups of insecticides and the organomercurial fungicide are among the most potent inhibitors of coral fertilisation and/or metamorphosis reported thus far. Therefore, the risks that these pesticides pose to corals, especially reproduction, are potentially significant.

The early life stages of coral exhibit some of the most sensitive biological responses to pesticide contamination in the marine environment. The extremely high sensitivity of Acropora millepora settlement to a range of insecticides and a fungicide indicates that pesticide contamination of the reef habitat, even by barely detectable concentrations, could have profound consequences for population replenishment. The examination of toxic thresholds provides valuable information that can help management agencies assess risk to key marine organisms. The high sensitivity of corals also raises questions as to whether current sampling and analysis techniques are capable of detecting these low pesticide concentrations and whether water quality guidelines adequately protect all coral life stages.
http://www.int-res.com/articles/meps_oa/m330p127.pdf

 

[cpschult]

Can you go ahead and show the research behind your assumption on the relationship between bayer on your black sun coral spawning event?

Sorry man, had to giggle at this. To each their own. I dip. Bayer is easy. Corals look good. /shrug

 

[revhtree]

Following!

 

[Diesel]

Following.
Although I had never a bad effect about Bayer and that after using it for 6 years.

 

[Kungpaoshizi]

Can you go ahead and show the research behind your assumption on the relationship between bayer on your black sun coral spawning event?

Sorry man, had to giggle at this. To each their own. I dip. Bayer is easy. Corals look good. /shrug

Did you miss this? (though it's not the same species as a bsc)
Insecticides and a fungicide affect multiple coral life stages
The extremely high sensitivity of Acropora millepora settlement to a range of insecticides and a fungicide indicates that pesticide contamination of the reef habitat, even by barely detectable concentrations, could have profound consequences for population replenishment.

I hate to say it, but without references cited as to how it's not toxic, you bring a moot point to the table.
My comment on the black sun coral settling was only in speculation as to how it happened. Can't say I've heard of many people having corals spawning and settling, especially black sun corals.

But I didn't bring it up as the main point for this. The warning on the label, the information entries about the specific compounds, the warnings even from such a generic source of info as Wikipedia, and then the 2 research links, should provide more than enough for a general intro to toxicological effects and results.

You can do any number of things to organisms and they look fine. Numerous diseases do not affect the outside a person, animal, coral, etc, which we see with our limited vision.

 

[Kungpaoshizi]

Though it's not saltwater, biodiversity is a common concept.

http://beyondpesticides.org/dailyne...es-reduce-biodiversity-in-aquatic-ecosystems/
Study Finds Pesticides Reduce Biodiversity in Aquatic Ecosystems
(Beyond Pesticides, June 26, 2013) Pesticide use has sharply reduced the regional biodiversity of stream invertebrates, such as mayflies and dragonflies, finds a study published in the Proceedings of the National Academy of Science. While previous research has shown similar decreases in individual streams, this new study analyzes the effects of pesticides over broad regions. This is one of several recent findings that show pesticides pose a long-term threat to important ecosystems.

The study, entitled Pesticides reduce regional biodiversity of stream invertebrates, notes that losses of biodiversity caused by anthropogenic activities during the past 50 years are unprecedented in human history. A team of researchers sampled 23 streams in the central plains of Germany, 16 in the western plains of France, and 24 in southern Victoria, Australia. Researchers classified streams according to three different levels of pesticide contamination: uncontaminated, slightly contaminated, and highly contaminated. Utilizing a model-based approach to account for other environmental variables, the team observed that losses in taxonomic diversity were, to a large degree, determined by the loss of species specifically vulnerable to pesticides. Overall, they found that there were up to 42% fewer species in highly contaminated than in uncontaminated streams in Europe. Highly contaminated streams in Australia showed a decrease in the number of invertebrate families by up to 27% when contrasted with uncontaminated streams. The pesticides analyzed from the streams sampled in the study include several organophosphates, organochlorines, pyrethroids(pyrethroids are one of the 2 ingredients from bayer) and other pesticides currently banned in these countries.

Furthermore, the researchers note that species losses were detected at pesticide concentrations that current legislation considers environmentally protective. This means, according to the authors, that current ecological risk assessments of pesticides falls short of protecting biodiversity, and new approaches linking ecology and ecotoxicology is needed. “If the aims of slowing the biodiversity loss rate and minimizing the effects of contaminants on biodiversity are to be achieved, the existing pesticide registration, methods of application to fields, and mitigation practices (e.g., buffer zones near waterways) should be developed toward more protective standards,” the researchers state.

This study reinforces the findings of biologist Dave Goulson, PhD, of the University of Sussex, UK, who notes that bees, butterflies, moths, carabid beetles and birds (the groups for which good data are available) all show significant overall declines in recent years, particularly in agricultural regions. Dr. Goulson in his paper, An overview of the environmental risks posed by neonicotinoid insecticides, discusses the impact of the environmental persistence of neonicotinoid pesticides on a broad range of non-target species including pollinators, and soil and aquatic invertebrates, which threatens a range of ecosystem services. This paper also notes that consumption of small numbers of neonicotinoid-treated seeds offers a route to direct mortality in birds and mammals. Similarly, a recent report by Pierre Mineau, PhD. finds that the major contributor to the decline in farmland and grassland birds is pesticide use. This report finds that the best predictor of bird declines is the lethal risk from insecticide use modeled from pesticide impact studies. In 2012, one study reported that widely used herbicides adversely impact non-target invertebrate organisms including endangered species. Researchers found that adult numbers of the Behr’s metalmark butterfly dropped by one-fourth to more than one-third when its larvae were exposed to herbicides applied in the vicinity of the butterfly’s preferred food source, the naked stem buckwheat plant.

Research strongly indicates that biodiversity promotes environmental productivity, stability, and resilience. In general, communities with greater biodiversity generate more biomass (the combined weight of all organisms), are more resistant to environmental disturbances, such as drought, and bounce back more quickly after being affected by such disturbances. Beyond Pesticides’ report, Preserving Biodiversity, As if Life Depends on it, notes that by targeting individual species – both as commodities to produce and pests to attack– chemical-intensive practices sacrifice the benefits of biodiversity and jeopardize the very species that comprise it. While causing harm to biodiversity, chemical-intensive strategies in agriculture are not proven to be necessary in light of effective organic practices.

The conservation of biodiversity is both a core premise of organic land management. For more on how organic management preserves biodiversity visit the organic program page. Read Do-it-yourself biodiversity, for backyard gardening tips.

 

[redfishbluefish]

This is why it is critically important to thoroughly rinse your frags after dipping in any dip! In addition, do it right, and remove the frag from the plug (if it's on a plug) and only dip the frag. Most plugs are absorbent and will suck up the dip as well....and then leach it back into your tank.

I actually do a double rinse when I dip....and actually not simply rinse, but soak for 5 - 10 minutes and then repeat with tank water a second time.

If it makes you feel any happier, Bayer is made of a derivitive of Chrysanthemum flowers and a tobacco tea. It has years of history. My father (also a chemist) use to go to the docks in the 40/50's to collect bails of chrysanthemum flowers that were used to extract the pyrethrum.

 

[StrangeDejavu]

Following along, though i'm not convinced Bayer dipping is bad for the tank or coral. I go the extra mile and soak in 5 different containers of tank water after dipping. On the day dipped coral are added, I even run extra carbon. Never saw any changes in anything in my tank. Coral are thriving, acan heads are popping up everywhere, someone over at Reef Central even commented they wish they could get polyp extension like my pink hammer. I was monitoring my tank daily under my microscope around the time I added coral (recent dinoflagellate victory) to this tank and never saw ill effects. Nauplii, pods, pod molts, ciliates, nematodes, diatoms... you name it. Lots of biodiversity, none affected in any noticeable way.

 

[Kungpaoshizi]

@redfishbluefish Though I see what you're saying, there's many natural products that have no toxic effect until they're concentrated. Amphetamines and tobacco comes to mind. This can even be said about plain old water when consumed in excess.
@StrangeDejavu When you say 'none affected in any noticeable way', are you taking a daily inventory of all of the nauplii, pods, ciliates, nematodes, diatoms?

Again though guys, we're looking for cited research that has come to the conclusion that the ingredients are not toxic to marine environments..
Stay on target! (star wars sounds)

 

[andrewey]

While a literature review of the subject does support your claim, I think the discrepancy you're seeing between anecdotal evidence of using bayer dips as being "harmless" and possible harm is likely an issue of "dose makes the poison". Without any real knowledge of the dose of bayer entering our tanks following a dip, it seems premature to draw such large conclusions. I would understand in people were noticing larger effects (which we may not be noticing or equipped to see, so this isn't to say no effects are happening, as once again we have no evidence in either direction), but it would be worth testing and seeing if we're talking about bayer concentrations in the ppb, ppm, or ppt. That kind of data would at least allow us to compare "apples to apples" based on the publish research concerning marine environments.

The caveat for all of this is that the effect of insecticides on coral is still understudied and I applaud you on a safety first attitude! I also think it would be worthwhile to study the topic with different endpoints beyond simple tissue necrosis, but to include spawning events which you suggested as well as a range of other parameters.

 

[Blackhawk Fan]

When did people start dipping coral with big pharma enviornmental poisons? Anyone using roundup? We can have toxic glysophate gmo coral. Hahahaha
Guess I've been out of the loop for awhile.
Tagging along...
Sorry for the sarcasm.

 

[scchase]

Hmm I have dipped Pocci's they still manage to "spawn" and take over the reef succesfully for me.

 

[Kungpaoshizi]

Though they say 'chronic basis', I would bet these numbers are achievable rather easily, especially given it's not water soluble, so it's probably "clinging" quite well to the corals/rocks after the dip.
It is also highly toxic to aquatic invertebrates on a chronic basis (effects on growth and movement): NOAEC/LOAEC = 1.8/3.6 ppm in daphnids; NOAEC = 0.001 in Chironomus midge, and NOAEC/LOAEC = 0.00006/0.0013 ppm in mysid shrimp.

Stumbled across this as well, though it's not concerning corals, bioaccumulation is often a general effect. (so be sure to not dip your dolphins!)
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0160412012001377

The arguments of 'I see no effects' I can't agree too much with.. I see your point (ahhh!) but at the same time, a person can be hit by a car and lose complete extremity control, though unless they're in a wheelchair you would probably comment on them sitting in a chair, "they look normal to me".

 

[redfishbluefish]

Your not going to find it (cited research....not toxic to marine environments). They're all toxic....that's how they work....a neurotoxin in the case of Bayer.....but less toxic to humans. I feel more comfortable using Bayer than say Coral Rx, because they refuse to tell you what's in there stuff. I'd rather know.

Again, what's critical is to make sure the dipping juice, whatever it might be, is completely rinsed off the frag, because any remaining could have an impact on your tank.

I'm also not sure why you imply Bayer is not toxic......in your OP you stated, "(despite the label)". I've searched the label on my bottle and don't see that.

 

[andrewey]

Kungpaoshizi, I'm a bit confused for why you presented the NOAEC levels for those particular inverts. That would just seem to suggest it's a potent insecticide, hence a great coral dip. What I'm still curious to see is if the the amount of bayer clinging to say a birdnest after two serial rinse solutions placed in a tank would raise the levels in the aquarium to those levels. Additionally, that still doesn't get us closer to understanding their effect on corals.

To give you my background, my research has primarily focused on environmental toxicology with concern to low level contaminants such as heavy metals/insecticides. I'm simply trying to keep an open mind and make sure that we are only propagating sound science. I don't disagree with you in the slightest concerning the multitude of effects insecticide/pesticides on can have on mammals, birds, marine invertebrates, etc. through various mechanisms of action. I'm not advising that bayer or similar products are necessary safe or not, I just think presenting a title of "bayer pesticide as a coral dip stop it smh" might send the wrong message, as this is a rich topic for discovery and additional study is needed.

 

[brandon429]

how is this any different than claiming peroxide is killing filtration bacteria, because its listed as antimicrobial on the bottle, but we dilute it orders over and your claim was still that it kills bac but extensive in-tank work shows it never kills bac.

I have higher cause and effect standards for you man

of course bug dip is weird, and so is adding vodka lol. all we do is weird, its those collective outcomes we must factor imo

 

[andrewey]

redfishbluefish- you bring up a good point that really applies to the hobby in general. Often, we do not know what is in many of our products. Whether it be most commercial coral dips or any additives, we simply don't know if the bottles of "trace elements" have dangerously high levels or meaninglessly low levels of certain metals (I'm picking on trace elements right now, but this applies to many additives).

 

[Sabellafella]

You know at first, i used bayer (somtimes still do only if its a large small stoney colony). After killing all my inverts because i didnt wash the colony off more then once, i stopped using it. Where i live, they spray multiple times a year for westnile and other virus containing insects. The day or two after the spray, i will have a small stn event. My snails will look like their sick. I always run my skimmer line outside, witch is the reason why i now either cut the line the days they spray, or switch to media. In a way, people might disagree with you and you asked for it, because almost everyone uses bayer, but its very dangerous to work with when you can get somewhat the same results with a potassium chloride dip or iodine.

 

[rpercula]

@Kungpaoshizi do you Dip with coral RX?
Many people have used Bayer and feel it has been successful for them and their reef keeping. Are you spliting hairs because you had some "necrosis events". Maybe the Necrosis events were due to something else.
And just one more thing about spliting hairs are people who are in wheel chairs abnormal???

"they look normal to me".

 

[cb684]

I don't understand how the OP is unexpected, or how one would expect different. Of course it is toxic, and of course it decreases biodiversity. When I am dipping my corals I hope it decreases biodiversity and kill everything that is not the coral. Sure it is toxic to my corals, that is why I only keep on the solution for 15 minutes, rinse throughly. I also do constant water changes in my tank, and occasionally use granular activated carbon.