Best Fish to Cycle With

[MnFish1]

Here is an interesting question: If I have a tank thats 100 gallons. If I have cycled it such that it lowers ammonia from 1 to 0 in 24 hours. How much ammonia can be produced by the fish (per day) before ammonia starts to rise?

 

[ReefGeezer]

Here is an interesting question: If I have a tank thats 100 gallons. If I have cycled it such that it lowers ammonia from 1 to 0 in 24 hours. How much ammonia can be produced by the fish (per day) before ammonia starts to rise?

If counting only on nitrifying bacteria, any amount over the that which yielded the original "1" should cause an ammonia rise for a period of time. MnFish1 is correct, IMO... tanks are never "cycled" to the point where new sources of ammonia can be added without notice. There is some lag time between addition of a new ammonia source and the systems capacity to reduce it. In a mature tank there are other users of nitrogen compounds i.e. algae, corals, and etc. that can mask this lag time.

 

[MnFish1]

If counting only on nitrifying bacteria, any amount over the that which yielded the original "1" should cause an ammonia rise for a period of time. MnFish1 is correct, IMO... tanks are never "cycled" to the point where new sources of ammonia can be added without notice. There is some lag time between addition of a new ammonia source and the systems capacity to reduce it. In a mature tank there are other users of nitrogen compounds i.e. algae, corals, and etc. that can mask this lag time.

Right - you said it better than I:)... The point I was trying to make was that - theoretically, any fish(es) added could produce 400 mg ammonia/day (which would result in 1 ppm ammonia in a 100 gallon tank (400 liters)). If they produced 'more' than 400 mg - there is a potential for toxicity. So - the argument 'cycling using fish immediately is cruel' to me doesnt make sense. Because every time we add a fish there is the potential that you will overshoot. Just like when you start with rock, fish and bacteria - there is a potential to overshoot.... I'm surprised how many people here have answered the thread as if there is such a thing as a 'cycled tank'. (or at least 'cycled' has multiple potential definitions)

 

[ReefGeezer]

Right - you said it better than I:)... The point I was trying to make was that - theoretically, any fish(es) added could produce 400 mg ammonia/day (which would result in 1 ppm ammonia in a 100 gallon tank (400 liters)). If they produced 'more' than 400 mg - there is a potential for toxicity. So - the argument 'cycling using fish immediately is cruel' to me doesnt make sense. Because every time we add a fish there is the potential that you will overshoot. Just like when you start with rock, fish and bacteria - there is a potential to overshoot.... I'm surprised how many people here have answered the thread as if there is such a thing as a 'cycled tank'. (or at least 'cycled' has multiple potential definitions)

Well yes but...there's always a but... Biology sucks!... I do believe there is a possibility that "cycling" a tank provides some buffer that will speed the system's response to a new ammonia source and lower the resulting peak greatly. Maybe that's due to the establishment of excess bacteria, a maturing of the system to include more N users, or some other mechanism I don't understand. I find it hard to accept that because we can't "cycle" a tank to create the absolute capacity required, that we shouldn't bother trying.

 

[MnFish1]

Well yes but...there's always a but... Biology sucks!... I do believe there is a possibility that "cycling" a tank provides some buffer that will speed the system's response to a new ammonia source and lower the resulting peak greatly. Maybe that's due to the establishment of excess bacteria, a maturing of the system to include more N users, or some other mechanism I don't understand. I find it hard to accept that because we can't "cycle" a tank to create the absolute capacity required, that we shouldn't bother trying.

I never suggested we shouldn't bother trying. Sorry if I gave that impression. I was only saying that the 'cruelty' that people have mentioned in this thread may be overblown - or that the potential for 'cruelty' may be = whether using bacteria and adding livestock at the same time - or waiting months for a cycle. It all depends on the ammonia load on the system.

 

[ReefGeezer]

I never suggested we shouldn't bother trying. Sorry if I gave that impression. I was only saying that the 'cruelty' that people have mentioned in this thread may be overblown - or that the potential for 'cruelty' may be = whether using bacteria and adding livestock at the same time - or waiting months for a cycle. It all depends on the ammonia load on the system.

I will agree that regardless of the method, some ammonia rise is likely as you stock the tank. The question is how much and for how long. It is good to point out this fact and call out the "cruelty police". But... "Waiting months"? ... come on now. You may be cherry picking some very bad results from one method in order to justify another. When done correctly, cycling a tank should take maybe 6 weeks, more likely 5 if you don't wait for ammonia to rise on its own. It's not hard to get that process right. When it's done right, there won't be a high or prolonged spike as the tank is stocked in a normally expected manner.

 

[MnFish1]

You may be cherry picking some very bad results from one method in order to justify another. When done correctly, cycling a tank should take maybe 6 weeks, more likely 5 if you don't wait for ammonia to rise on its own. It's not hard to get that process right. When it's done right, there won't be a high or prolonged spike as the tank is stocked in a normally expected manner.

I think it takes much less than 6 weeks (if you use Dr. Tims or another product like Fritz). I agree with you that the MOST it should take is 6 weeks.

I get your point - I don't know if I really am cherry picking. Ive seen quotes like I'm taking it slow - been 4 months now - my live rock has been in a brute trash can for 3 months etc. and wearing those comments almost as badge of pride. BTW - im not suggesting that anyone change their routine - or that they are wrong. I just do it differently

 

[ReefGeezer]

I think it takes much less than 6 weeks (if you use Dr. Tims or another product like Fritz). I agree with you that the MOST it should take is 6 weeks.

I get your point - I don't know if I really am cherry picking. Ive seen quotes like I'm taking it slow - been 4 months now - my live rock has been in a brute trash can for 3 months etc. and wearing those comments almost as badge of pride. BTW - im not suggesting that anyone change their routine - or that they are wrong. I just do it differently

The live rock curing process isn't for establishing nitrifying bacteria. It's for killing off the stuff that's going to die in the display tank or otherwise cause problems. I feel obligated to say that I add some organic material to provide carbon for the process during fishless cycles. Without it, a new and practically sterile tank's process could slow or even stall.

 

[mfrumkin]

Since a couple of people want a 'clear protocol':

Materials:
1. Saltwater tank - with appropriate filtration, oxygenation and rock (dead rock) and lights
2. A bacteria source - either bottled bacteria, some sand/etc from an established tank (hard to judge how much to use if you do it this way)/ a filter that has already been through a cycled tank (big enough for the new tank)
3. An ammonia alert source - perhaps badge - like those commonly used in QT tanks - shoudl be used.
4. A plan (just as if you were going to QT a fish) for dealing with elevated ammonia levels. My guess is that around here people would choose <.2 ppm. (water changes, prime (which I avoid) , or another method (like adding more bacteria)
5. Fish (which have been through whatever procedure you follow before putting them into a DT (QT, QT with meds etc )
6. You do not need to add any extra ammonia using this method.

Method:
1. Fill the tank with salt water. Start the filter. Add whatever bacteria source you prefer.
2. 3 hours and 45 minutes later (JK) - 12 hours later - add the fish you've chosen after whatever acclimation procedure you like.
3. Follow the ammonia badge and treat accordingly as per your usual QT method.
4. after 2-3 weeks - add another fish.
5. Continue step 4 until you have added whatever fish/coral you desire.

The goal with this method is to have in place (at the same time that you put in the fish) an adequate amount of nitrifying bacteria present to avoid ANY spike in ammonia - which in turn means there will be no toxicity, etc.

If you desire more 'extensive ammonia' testing - use a more accurate version than the badge - another titration kit.
If there is any evidence of distress - follow the same protocol you would use during quarantine.

This is not designed to create a debate about whether putting fish and a bacteria source in a tank is the 'best way' and it is certainly not the 'only way'. To me it has advantages over fishless cycling - and if done properly - no disadvantages per se.

Since I started this thread I'd thought I'd throw my 2 cents in. Over the last 30 years I have owned everything from goldfish, (curses on all school fairs), to my current 180 gallon reef, 125 gallon FOWLR and my little old timey bio-cube, (which I think I'm going to turn into an ATO reservoir for my 180 reef). I have always cycled with fish and I have NEVER EVER LOST a fish during the cycling process. In the past, I have used damsels and they have always ended up causing me a certain amount of aggravation. Ever see damsels bully a porcupine puffer? No? Well, I have. I am setting up a little 29-gallon tank that will be RFA, mushrooms, and zoas and it will sit in a wall unit in my office. I just wanted some ideas what to use OTHER than damsels, not cause a debate over fishless vs. fish cycling. I have discussed fishless cycling with friends who are both long-time reefers and many of whom also own LFS. By and large, with the advances in supplements that can be put in the water, they think fishless cycling is not necessary. And they all agree that the idea of throwing in shrimp to cycle the tank is idiotic. But to each his own. If you are happier doing a fishless cycle go for it. But please don't condemn us old timers who cycle with fish.

As to what fish: I'm probably going to go with clown fish. In the interest of transparency, if they die, (which they won't), I will mea culpa and never do it again.

 

[Michael Gilbreath]

.I got to say I have always cycled with fish to and never lost one to cycling. But i'm not a fan of adding to many products in my tanks I think if you let it do its thing you have better chance of success. This is just my way it has worked. I see all these product you can use for this and that and wonder if by using them are we creating more problems. In the last few yrs parasites. ich. velvet seem to happen a lot more. Could be fish are not as healthy when shipped, bad treatments. But and this is just my thinking to many people are trying for the cure all of everything by products. These products fish in the oceans don't have maybe we should look more at what keeps them health

 

[KrisReef]

Since I started this thread I'd thought I'd throw my 2 cents in. Over the last 30 years I have owned everything from goldfish, (curses on all school fairs), to my current 180 gallon reef, 125 gallon FOWLR and my little old timey bio-cube, (which I think I'm going to turn into an ATO reservoir for my 180 reef). I have always cycled with fish and I have NEVER EVER LOST a fish during the cycling process. In the past, I have used damsels and they have always ended up causing me a certain amount of aggravation. Ever see damsels bully a porcupine puffer? No? Well, I have. I am setting up a little 29-gallon tank that will be RFA, mushrooms, and zoas and it will sit in a wall unit in my office. I just wanted some ideas what to use OTHER than damsels, not cause a debate over fishless vs. fish cycling. I have discussed fishless cycling with friends who are both long-time reefers and many of whom also own LFS. By and large, with the advances in supplements that can be put in the water, they think fishless cycling is not necessary. And they all agree that the idea of throwing in shrimp to cycle the tank is idiotic. But to each his own. If you are happier doing a fishless cycle go for it. But please don't condemn us old timers who cycle with fish.

As to what fish: I'm probably going to go with clown fish. In the interest of transparency, if they die, (which they won't), I will mea culpa and never do it again.

Hey @mfrumkin
I have a pair of clowns that I would like to give you for starting this thread. I don't think they will die in your tank, but I probably will when my wife finds out I tried to give away her clown fish. :)

I can't remember how I cycled my last tank, if I used fish or not? I've moved from one tank to the next a few times and the only time I lose fish is when they jump out or I take them back to the store. Good luck on your new tank. I hope it is as lively as this thread has been! We certainly have a lively and sometimes ornery bunch of reefers on here helping out each other.

Love this thread, it's been a jewel.

 

[mfrumkin]

The OP didn’t indicate that he knows or used this method. His one line question indicates he’s looking for other fish to cycle the tank. Using already cured live rock to avoid the initial cycle or lessen the initial cycle is certainly possible, but there’s absolutely nothing in his post indicating that is what he’s doing. How do you know he didn’t just set up a tank with dry rock and sand?



Again, this assumes that one is starting with already cycled, live rock to help process ammonia. Dead dry rock without bacteria is not going to process ammonia and it will build up. Most people don’t call this “cycling” a tank. It’s using already established, cycled live rock in a new tank to avoid or lessen the initial cycle. Also, you included only fish in your calculation. You didn’t include excess food that inevitably finds its way into the aquarium, which will increase ammonia significantly more than fish. How much will it increase ammonia? I don’t know. It’s your argument and it’s missed a critical issue.

After reading the many responses on this thread I have decided to go with a fishless cycle. I haven't set up a new reef tank in about 10 years and clearly the technology has come a long way. The tank is getting set up on Tuesday, assuming it is delivered as scheduled. This is what I have so far: Carib-Sea Life rock, Carib-Sea Arag-Alive sand, and Dr. Tims. I was also going to take a couple of pieces of live rock out of my 180gl and add it in. Is there anything I'm missing?

 

[bluprntguy]

After reading the many responses on this thread I have decided to go with a fishless cycle. I haven't set up a new reef tank in about 10 years and clearly the technology has come a long way. The tank is getting set up on Tuesday, assuming it is delivered as scheduled. This is what I have so far: Carib-Sea Life rock, Carib-Sea Arag-Alive sand, and Dr. Tims. I was also going to take a couple of pieces of live rock out of my 180gl and add it in. Is there anything I'm missing?

Dr Tim’s bacteria (one and only) or dr. Tim’s ammonia chloride? Or both?

But yes, generally sounds good.

 

[mfrumkin]

Dr Tim’s bacteria (one and only) or dr. Tim’s ammonia chloride? Or both?

But yes, generally sounds good.

I think I saw that you should use both?

Also, I took a few small pieces out of my 180gl reef and put them in the sun to hopefully kill any bad things about a week ago. This morning I put them back into a bucket of tank water. Is it safe to introduce them into the new tank and will it do any good?

 

[bluprntguy]

Dr Tim’s bacteria (one and only) or dr. Tim’s ammonia chloride? Or both?

I think I saw that you should use both?

Also, I took a few small pieces out of my 180gl reef and put them in the sun to hopefully kill any bad things about a week ago. This morning I put them back into a bucket of tank water. Is it safe to introduce them into the new tank and will it do any good?

You definitely need an ammonia source. Your live sand and the life rock do have bacteria, but it would be good to add some of the dr tim’s bacteria as well. I think it’s a good choice to get both.

If you put the rock from your tank in the sun for a few days, it’s probably dead rock now. If you really like the rocks, then it’s fine to use, but it doesn’t have any (or much) beneficial bacteria.

 

[mfrumkin]

You definitely need an ammonia source. Your live sand and the life rock do have bacteria, but it would be good to add some of the dr tim’s bacteria as well. I think it’s a good choice to get both.

If you put the rock from your tank in the sun for a few days, it’s probably dead rock now. If you really like the rocks, then it’s fine to use, but it doesn’t have any (or much) beneficial bacteria.

Not married to the rock. I suspected that letting sit in the sun wasn't going to work. The rock and substrate in the 180gl are over 10 years old and I was concerned I might introduce something harmful into the new nano.

 

[bluprntguy]

Not married to the rock. I suspected that letting sit in the sun wasn't going to work. The rock and substrate in the 180gl are over 10 years old and I was concerned I might introduce something harmful into the new nano.

I’d probably start the new nano with all the clean life rock.

 

[MnFish1]

Amen. Honestly surprised that this was even controversial and surprised that people are not only advocating for putting fish in tanks where the biological filtration hasn’t been verified, but putting fish in tanks where the biological filtration hasn’t been verified AND advocating for not bothering to test for ammonia.

Thanks for your post and I’m glad there is someone else on here that advocates for responsible methods of reefing.

There is no way to 'verify' the biological filtration.

For example. Cycle a tank using Dr. Tim's. Add a clown all good.
Cycle a tank using Dr. Tim's. - add 5 tangs. Is it the same. is the cycle verified?

 

[Paul Sands]

There is no way to 'verify' the biological filtration.

For example. Cycle a tank using Dr. Tim's. Add a clown all good.
Cycle a tank using Dr. Tim's. - add 5 tangs. Is it the same. is the cycle verified?

Really? You are replying to a post from 2 weeks ago to re-start an argument?

OP clearly disagrees with you, as does science. It’s quite easy to verify a cycle using ammonia and testing. He’s decided to do the logical thing and cycle using bottled ammonia.

And no, you shouldn’t add 5 tangs to a brand new aquarium that’s just cycled. No one is suggesting that’s a good idea except you, apparently.

 

[erk]

Considering the cost of saltwater fish, I find it hard to understand why anyone would use them to cycle a reef tank. Especially if it is a fish you don't want to keep long term. I'll stick with the fishless cycling as it works just as well and I'm not so impatient that I need it setup yesterday.