BIG AND LOUD CONTROLLER COMPARISON THREAD

[TheEngineer]

@Terence you make a lot of mention of power factor correction in your power measurements and I'm not sure why. It sounds impressive to say you correct for power factor but in reality I don't see what the average (or even advanced) reefer gets from this. Power factor in our homes and systems is going to be pretty darn close to 1. Odds are it will be somewhere around 0.9-0.95.

Electric companies supply us power without regard to power factor unless you go below 0.9 typically. To that end, I don't understand the value you feel this additional correction adds. Even if you pay for the correction factor it would be on the order of $0.50 a month for an entire house unless you drop way too far down but then you'd have bigger issues than how your controller reports out power usage.

 

[Terence]

You can check the power factor with a kilowatt. The average on aquarium equipment is not as you say. In fact, you can check out one of those white Radion power supplies if you do not believe me. If you do not want to check it out personally, I believe Sanjay tested them a couple of years ago and reported on it.

 

[Terence]

Here is the article. And the excerpt. http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2013/8/review

 

[TheEngineer]

How strange! I hope they corrected their power supply since then. I'm guessing they use a switching power supply. It doesn't answer my question though about value to the reefer.

Motors are much better examples of devices with poor power factor than lights. Here's a good table showing what poor power factor costs on typical devices in the home.

The worst offender here is the AC. At nearly 500kWh per month, it translates into $0.18 per month in additional costs due to the PF. It would take 25 years to make up for $5 in cost for measuring this assuming the measurement made a correction to the PF. Unfortunately PF isn't a quantum effect and observing it doesn't affect its value

Measuring the true power doesn't enable you to make any particular changes and even if you decided to add a PF correcting device the cost of the device would almost certainly not be justifiable over the lifetime of the device.

 

[Terence]

If you are trying to understand the true power consumption of your devices, measuring watts is what you do. If you are trying to determine wire sizes, capacity on a power bar, etc. then amps is what matters. Having either is great. Having both is just more useful - especially when it comes to cost analysis. In the case of the Radion, if you simply converted the read amps, it would be significantly inaccurate.

 

[Joeganja]

I think this is a good thread for the average hobbyist who doesn't necessarily need this maybe because it's not in his or her budget but may think it's good insurance for all that money you dump in your tank and or simply because or someone who's looking to save up for a decent controller. One thing that should be seen is how much a controller is gonna cost you in the long run? Almost as much as the tank itself you know? I bought my apex lab grade used for $270 with a temp, pH probe, eb8, the brain, and the display, and it came with powerline adapters. I'm not one to be able to afford a $500-800 unit because it's not in my budget so I had no choice to go used. But I like mine. The leak detector is something I bought along with the controller new I think that is one piece of equipment that is a must have simply because it can potentially save your tank from an ato disfunction and it filling up your tank to the top, power goes out and the back siphon from the main tank to the sump starts which then you have a ups connected to your router and controller and notifies you. Yes it's good to have a controller but the idea of it being the brain of your tank is overlooked. You should be the brains of your tank regardless whether your busy or not. This piece of equipment is insurance and it can possibly fail (hoping it doesn't). As far as my 2 cents goes neptunes systems does a good job with modularity, expansion, support for different brands like ecotech marine, aqua illumination, jebao, and others and it's been in the game for a while now it's more of the standard controller you compare to any other controller. Digital aquatics reef keeper is a good controller but it doesn't have the most expandability and support for other brands. Digital aquatics archon seems promising and the fact that it's cheaper than the apex and its more comparable to the new apex and the vectra as well as GHL makes it seem like a promising contender and something I'd be interested in trying out. I will say people have told me it's easier to set up than the apex and doesn't take as much effort and research. Don't know too much about GHL but it seems like a very complex system. Maybe it's not but it's sore on the eyes for me. Ah vertex cerebral the controller that retailed for $300-400 during launch and is going to be a long time player. It seems like a quality built controller with a lot of thought. Just don't know about that big brain of its. I wish it was a smaller footprint. The other two I don't even know of. But here's the breakdown. What do you need it to do for you? What do your majority of equipment have in common? Are they the same brand. For example if you have all radions, a vectra for return pump, and vortech pumps you might as well get a reef link and you'll be able to control all those (fingers crossed ecotech marine comes out with a controller). If you want something to do stuff like ato, leak detection, pH, temp, salinity, and will always expand and always be a player in the game. The Apple of controllers then Apex all the way. I have one, I love it, can't complain, but I'm already $500 into it easy. Bought a double junction pH probe for longevity and accuracy, ALD module with leak detection, break out box and ato, temp probe, that's connected to a fan to control when that goes on and off during the summer. There's a lot to do. But l think for anyone new to this and is looking to get a controller and doesn't want to spend a lot of money up front, then get a reef keeper or Archon, or if you don't need more than 6-7 modules get the apex jr. or get a used apex. I came into the controller hype not too sure but it's nice having something to fall back on, Oh pH is too high, lower it, temps 84F fan on, leak check plumbing. It comes in handy before it's too late. But ask yourself this question. How much do you need it to do because all these test for pH, temp, out the box (except for apex jr. only temp), have power ourlefr thats can be controlled, a display, wireless connectivity, the rest you gotta figure out what you need and limit your options to find out what works for you. I'm finished lol.

 

[TheEngineer]

If you are trying to understand the true power consumption of your devices, measuring watts is what you do. If you are trying to determine wire sizes, capacity on a power bar, etc. then amps is what matters. Having either is great. Having both is just more useful - especially when it comes to cost analysis. In the case of the Radion, if you simply converted the read amps, it would be significantly inaccurate.

I understand that. It's sort of like when someone gets the next digit of Pi. That's great it is more accurate but at the end of the day 3.14 is sufficient for most applications. I'm trying to figure out why this is a selling point. I'm thinking I'm missing something obvious. Hence my question

Say I know my $500 light has low power factor and I see that with your tool. I'm probably not going to go out and buy another light. But maybe that's just me. I don't know of any manufacturers who list their PF for our equipment.

EDIT: now if you start correcting for power factor, that would be awesome!

 

[PurduePete93]

I'd love to see some discussion of costs/value. I have very little knowledge of what kind of investment over time these things are. I might not care if one is 10% better if it's 3x the price, etc.

 

[Terence]

I understand that. It's sort of like when someone gets the next digit of Pi. That's great it is more accurate but at the end of the day 3.14 is sufficient for most applications. I'm trying to figure out why this is a selling point. I'm thinking I'm missing something obvious. Hence my question

Say I know my $500 light has low power factor and I see that with your tool. I'm probably not going to go out and buy another light. But maybe that's just me. I don't know of any manufacturers who list their PF for our equipment.

EDIT: now if you start correcting for power factor, that would be awesome!

It is not about knowing the PF. It is about knowing the true power used if you care to know that cost. If you have products like the Radion that have poor power factors, measuring watts will give you a more accurate understanding of that. In the case I showed, the difference is not another digit of PI. A device that measured amps and straight converted to watts would show show that it used nearly double the power than it actually did.

I would say that if it were not important for power reporting, inexpensive, consumer grade devices like the kill-a-watt would simply just tell you a reading in amps and either omit watts altogether or do the simple conversion - these inexpensive devices would not put the extra electronics (cost) necessary to make that reading.

Ultimately the consumer can decide if all this information is valuable to them or not. I am only telling you what the EB832 does - I have no personal experience with what other controllers do in regards to reporting volts/amps/watts on each outlet. User feedback is important, but getting the info straight from the manufacturer is also helpful.

 

[d2mini]

With the GHL's I am assuming you can utilize more than one power bar per unit. How many could you use per system and what is the cost per unit?

64 switchable sockets and 32 dimmable.
https://www.aquariumcomputer.com/products/profilux-accessories/powerbars/
And as Marco explained in Matthias's thread, you also have the option to control 0-10v devices which won't take up an available socket, connections right on the back of the Profilux itself.
Cost depends on which bars you want to run.
https://www.aquariumcomputer.com/us...x-accessories/powerbars-profilux-accessories/

 

[Daniel@R2R]

I think this is a good thread for the average hobbyist who doesn't necessarily need this maybe because it's not in his or her budget but may think it's good insurance for all that money you dump in your tank and or simply because or someone who's looking to save up for a decent controller. One thing that should be seen is how much a controller is gonna cost you in the long run? Almost as much as the tank itself you know? I bought my apex lab grade used for $270 with a temp, pH probe, eb8, the brain, and the display, and it came with powerline adapters. I'm not one to be able to afford a $500-800 unit because it's not in my budget so I had no choice to go used. But I like mine. The leak detector is something I bought along with the controller new I think that is one piece of equipment that is a must have simply because it can potentially save your tank from an ato disfunction and it filling up your tank to the top, power goes out and the back siphon from the main tank to the sump starts which then you have a ups connected to your router and controller and notifies you. Yes it's good to have a controller but the idea of it being the brain of your tank is overlooked. You should be the brains of your tank regardless whether your busy or not. This piece of equipment is insurance and it can possibly fail (hoping it doesn't). As far as my 2 cents goes neptunes systems does a good job with modularity, expansion, support for different brands like ecotech marine, aqua illumination, jebao, and others and it's been in the game for a while now it's more of the standard controller you compare to any other controller. Digital aquatics reef keeper is a good controller but it doesn't have the most expandability and support for other brands. Digital aquatics archon seems promising and the fact that it's cheaper than the apex and its more comparable to the new apex and the vectra as well as GHL makes it seem like a promising contender and something I'd be interested in trying out. I will say people have told me it's easier to set up than the apex and doesn't take as much effort and research. Don't know too much about GHL but it seems like a very complex system. Maybe it's not but it's sore on the eyes for me. Ah vertex cerebral the controller that retailed for $300-400 during launch and is going to be a long time player. It seems like a quality built controller with a lot of thought. Just don't know about that big brain of its. I wish it was a smaller footprint. The other two I don't even know of. But here's the breakdown. What do you need it to do for you? What do your majority of equipment have in common? Are they the same brand. For example if you have all radions, a vectra for return pump, and vortech pumps you might as well get a reef link and you'll be able to control all those (fingers crossed ecotech marine comes out with a controller). If you want something to do stuff like ato, leak detection, pH, temp, salinity, and will always expand and always be a player in the game. The Apple of controllers then Apex all the way. I have one, I love it, can't complain, but I'm already $500 into it easy. Bought a double junction pH probe for longevity and accuracy, ALD module with leak detection, break out box and ato, temp probe, that's connected to a fan to control when that goes on and off during the summer. There's a lot to do. But l think for anyone new to this and is looking to get a controller and doesn't want to spend a lot of money up front, then get a reef keeper or Archon, or if you don't need more than 6-7 modules get the apex jr. or get a used apex. I came into the controller hype not too sure but it's nice having something to fall back on, Oh pH is too high, lower it, temps 84F fan on, leak check plumbing. It comes in handy before it's too late. But ask yourself this question. How much do you need it to do because all these test for pH, temp, out the box (except for apex jr. only temp), have power ourlefr thats can be controlled, a display, wireless connectivity, the rest you gotta figure out what you need and limit your options to find out what works for you. I'm finished lol.

I think this post is quite helpful. It brings up a good point of discussion: cost of purchase AND expansion.

 

[Rick Mathew]

I have 2 types of controllers that I am currently using and have in the past used a third. They are from two manufactures, Neptune Apex and Digital Aquatics. I am using an Apex on my display tank and have 3 Digital aquatics ReefKeeper Lites that I use on my salt mixing station and my two quarantine tanks. I had a ReefKeeper Elite (V2) that I replaced with the Apex.

First let me say they all do a very good job and would recommend all of them. The ReefKeepers computer interface, myReef2, is function and reliable. It is not as flexible as the Apex interface but does the job well. I switch my display tank to the Apex system to expand the futures that are available…auto feed, DOS, etc. Also the programmability of the Apex is very useful. It allows you to do some fairly complex functions: For example setting a safety on a doser in case you have a runaway…which I have experienced. The programming can at times be intimidating but a bit of persistence and the help of the Neptune community it is nothing to fear. Also the graphing function on the Apex is more robust. I especially like the compare feature which allows me to see the effects of dosing and other activities on the parameters of the tank. The ReefKeeper System Interface Device (SID) can be a bit of a problem if you keep it connected to your computer all the time. At least on my versions, if the computer goes down for any reason the system sends all of the outlets into the default mode. This can be a problem for dosers, heaters and chillers etc. if it is down for an extended period of time…like when I am away.

A critical issue, at least for me, is support of the products. I have read on several forums about the Digital Aquatics service being less than stellar, but that was not my experience. They were very prompt at responding to my inquiries, mostly by e-mail. The Neptune forum has been able to answer most of my questions with regard to the Apex. My one or two direct contacts with Neptune have been very positive.

From an equipment reliability standpoint I have had great success with both. I suppose one could go feature by feature and compare them but for me the bottom line is what are my needs and which one fits that need best and what is the best value to meet that need. In my case both of these meet my different needs for my different applications….both very good products!...That is about as Loud as I get

Here are some pictures

The APEX on my main tank

ReefKeeper Lite on My Salt Mix Station

Two ReefKeeper Lites on My Quarantine Tanks

 

[glavaron]

I have 2 types of controllers that I am currently using and have in the past used a third. They are from two manufactures, Neptune Apex and Digital Aquatics. I am using an Apex on my display tank and have 3 Digital aquatics ReefKeeper Lites that I use on my salt mixing station and my two quarantine tanks. I had a ReefKeeper Elite (V2) that I replaced with the Apex.

First let me say they all do a very good job and would recommend all of them. The ReefKeepers computer interface, myReef2, is function and reliable. It is not as flexible as the Apex interface but does the job well. I switch my display tank to the Apex system to expand the futures that are available…auto feed, DOS, etc. Also the programmability of the Apex is very useful. It allows you to do some fairly complex functions: For example setting a safety on a doser in case you have a runaway…which I have experienced. The programming can at times be intimidating but a bit of persistence and the help of the Neptune community it is nothing to fear. Also the graphing function on the Apex is more robust. I especially like the compare feature which allows me to see the effects of dosing and other activities on the parameters of the tank. The ReefKeeper System Interface Device (SID) can be a bit of a problem if you keep it connected to your computer all the time. At least on my versions, if the computer goes down for any reason the system sends all of the outlets into the default mode. This can be a problem for dosers, heaters and chillers etc. if it is down for an extended period of time…like when I am away.

A critical issue, at least for me, is support of the products. I have read on several forums about the Digital Aquatics service being less than stellar, but that was not my experience. They were very prompt at responding to my inquiries, mostly by e-mail. The Neptune forum has been able to answer most of my questions with regard to the Apex. My one or two direct contacts with Neptune have been very positive.

From an equipment reliability standpoint I have had great success with both. I suppose one could go feature by feature and compare them but for me the bottom line is what are my needs and which one fits that need best and what is the best value to meet that need. In my case both of these meet my different needs for my different applications….both very good products!...That is about as Loud as I get

Here are some pictures

The APEX on my main tank

ReefKeeper Lite on My Salt Mix Station

Two ReefKeeper Lites on My Quarantine Tanks

That's a tremendous amount of wiring and modules. Another drawback to Neptune in my opinion.

 

[n2585722]

That's a tremendous amount of wiring and modules. Another drawback to Neptune in my opinion.

That is the pros and cons to the different systems. A modular system will have more wiring, but will have the avalibility to have modules placed closer to where they are needed. I am not familiar with the Apex, but I would imagine it is similar to other modular systems in regards to wiring.

 

[glavaron]

That is the pros and cons to the different systems. A modular system will have more wiring, but will have the avalibility to have modules placed closer to where they are needed. I am not familiar with the Apex, but I would imagine it is similar to other modular systems in regards to wiring.

I have the Apex and it is a pain to get the cords and modules organized. I have the Gold system so I haven't even added anything to it. I see your point but I think the vast majority of reefers do not have the need to have modules placed closer to where they are needed.

 

[n2585722]

I might be in the minority then as I have parts of my system in the garage that is around 35ft form the room with the tank. I have 4 pumps and a coupe of power bars in the garage that are controlled by my controller. My ATO storage and fresh saltwater for auto water change along with the RODI system are in the garage.

 

[Rick Mathew]

That's a tremendous amount of wiring and modules. Another drawback to Neptune in my opinion.

For sure there can be lots of wires...a challenge to manage them sometimes...I label all of mine ever foot or so...makes them easier to trace if the is a problem...which has not been too often thankfully..

 

[Rick Mathew]

I might be in the minority then as I have parts of my system in the garage that is around 35ft form the room with the tank. I have 4 pumps and a coupe of power bars in the garage that are controlled by my controller. My ATO storage and fresh saltwater for auto water change along with the RODI system are in the garage.

Right there with you...almost the same situation...nice to have a modular system that lets me do that

 

[d2mini]

With an Expansion Box you can run multiple tanks or equipment in multiple rooms via a single Profilux controller.
https://www.aquariumcomputer.com/products/profilux-accessories/expansion-box-2/
You just need to run a PAB cable between the Exp2 and the Profilux, any length up to 100m.

 

[n2585722]

With an Expansion Box you can run multiple tanks or equipment in multiple rooms via a single Profilux controller.
https://www.aquariumcomputer.com/products/profilux-accessories/expansion-box-2/
You just need to run a PAB cable between the Exp2 and the Profilux, any length up to 100m.

This can be done with the Archon, RKE and I assume with the Apex also. Just add the modules you need where you need them.