Biome Cycling idea

[Dburr1014]

I still think LFS distributors are missing out on not selling us consumers 1 ounce samples of real reef water from across the globe. that's true microbiome alteration.

I'm not joking I would pay about 20 bucks for tight-qc controlled samples shipped and handled internationally meant for reef tank inoculating. I'd put some fijiian samples in my reef and some samples from other places currently showing strong growth trends and no bleaching.

that would be sick: you have the apps that research live time where the strongest reefs in nature are, and you sell shots of that water to hungry consumers. I'd try some.

Not the water but maybe the sand.

 

[carri10]

To reply to the OP, how much time do you have? If you can get some (even a little) live rock and put it in a container with your dry rock, add a shrimp (frozen) a week and change water every month or so, you should get your dry rock “seeded” in some way with surface microbes and maybe other things after a few months
This will be better than just starting from zero. How much better, I can’t say.
Agree with a lot of comments that diversity is what you need. And that comes from live rock and diverse sources.
And time…

 

[brandon429]

nice call/substrate packet transfer. in oxygen-permeable material = would be powerful

no fancy testing needed: just fallow it 90 days with feed microdoses before selling it/disease vector controls simple/ that would strip reefs though so most places would not do it

even getting an ounce of the water might be hard to do on a mass scale

but talk about a powerful microbiome seed.

 

[Ben's Pico Reefing]

AF life is a good source for minerals and nutrients. There will be some bacteria in this. I have used in past with not much change in results for corals. The focus is on coral and fish health. Biodiversity is fine, but doesn't matter how much we have if our corals and fish don't live. Dosing won't hurt your tank and may help promote corals by adding beneficial minerals we don't normally dose or have in our salt mixes or those that does. Use these sparingly though.

For diversity as other said try to order or get rocks from multiple tanks. They don't have to stay permanently and don't need much. But they will need time for real estate as they compete with already established things.

 

[brandon429]

I'll always be pressing for the removal side of the equation though.

the market is shifting to what we add to reefs to keep them in top condition


but there's a hidden free market that exists on what's removed from a current reef tank to keep it running well, and that's long-term tested. shown to be a marked powerful method of invasion control too in reefing; to be export-oriented vs addition-oriented in reefing.

reef tanks are always accumulating floc

storing that, and justifying it in one way or another causes a lot of problems, it's like a mouth that doesn't go to the dentist.

but in systems that practice precision grazing as needed via tools to be uninvaded, while keeping all waste out of accumulation pockets in the system, allows naturally-imported reef microbiome constituents that do a perfectly good long term job on their own. without additions or supports. traded on hardscapes tank to tank.

spending effort to remove or design out collections of waste in the home reef system is better for long-term care than concern over adding to/boosting up strains. that's a for-sale angle, that matters in choosing best practices.

if you backflush a filter regularly and prevent clogging of surface area it tends to do fine with the original seeding. our reef tanks are giant surface area filters that benefit from high flow/ejection of waste vs storage designs.

my system is 18 years old and has never had it's microbiome added to other than frags. it gets regular dentist visits, that's why it's 18 vs a new tank. export based controls are powerful too, and they're free.

 

[KrisReef]

So, I am about to start cycling a new tank and I wanted to see thoughts on this for optimal biome cycle. So I am wanting to do the following.

Dry Rock
Live Sand
Aquaforest AF life source (a moderate amount mixed in with the sand)
Dr. Tims

My goal is looking to hit a good biodiversity and a solid beneficial bacterial population. I watched the whole series on the Biome Cycling and I heard Ryan Batcheller from BRSTV talk about possibly mixing Aquaforest AF into the sand, but no further details. Has anyone tried this or a similar method and what was the outcome? I am not looking for opinions on the products I am using I am more interested in the actual science behind the method and if this will help establish a healthy diverse bacterial colony.

I went to the BRS website and read the reviews with many folks suggesting that the product contained iron filings, in no small quantities. I have read other places that the ocean can be low in iron and that the addition of iron can help planktonic growth which might be helpful for corals? I don't know, but I recently went to a reef and collected sand and water and macroalgae to add microbes and macroplanktonic stuff to my reef. Lots of life came along, I hand carried it back and put it in the tank in less than 24 hours. Stuff in a bag is going to suffer some die off, but it will get some diversity of the durable bacterias.

Good luck!

 

[ShanePike]

So, I am about to start cycling a new tank and I wanted to see thoughts on this for optimal biome cycle. So I am wanting to do the following.

Dry Rock
Live Sand
Aquaforest AF life source (a moderate amount mixed in with the sand)
Dr. Tims

My goal is looking to hit a good biodiversity and a solid beneficial bacterial population. I watched the whole series on the Biome Cycling and I heard Ryan Batcheller from BRSTV talk about possibly mixing Aquaforest AF into the sand, but no further details. Has anyone tried this or a similar method and what was the outcome? I am not looking for opinions on the products I am using I am more interested in the actual science behind the method and if this will help establish a healthy diverse bacterial colony.

I think there are two basic scenarios: 1) Ryan is lying about the science to sell products and make himself richer or 2) he really believes the science that they're doing. I'm going with #2, especially since he's very up front that this concept is a work in progress and encourages others to do their own tests. That's what I'm doing. I'm setting up a new tank with dry rock and will be using various products to add biodiversity. We'll see how it goes.

 

[Tenelen]

@RocketEngineer @KC2020 @ShanePike

Ok so update tank is cycling pretty well. Started cycling on Sunday and already losing detectable dosed ammonia and starting to spike Nitrite. Currently not running any filter media or skimmer. I did make a change on the build as my LFS gave me a deal on live rock, so I added that instead of dry rock. Uploaded some pics of the build and aquascape. Rocks in the middle for a Zoa garden, planning on going mixed reef with some SPS in about 5-6 months when the system is fully stable.

 

[Gregg @ ADP]

It’s amazing to me that something as simple and inevitable as cycling a tank has become a hot button issue.

You could literally just pee in your tank a couple of times, walk away, come back in a month and start adding livestock.

 

[Jekyl]

It’s amazing to me that something as simple and inevitable as cycling a tank has become a hot button issue.

You could literally just pee in your tank a couple of times, walk away, come back in a month and start adding livestock.

I'll go one step further in saying that in that month time even without adding an ammonia source the tank would be cycled. Just through what enters the tank from the air.

 

[brandon429]

Jekyl that's one of the untested things in reefing, truly unassisted cycles. amazing to think that in 2024 nobody has data on that timing/ability etc. I agree self cycling unassisted is possible / it's just we don't know what the timeframe is

it very well could be a month, anyone who owns a seneye would be able to answer this question and produce new data for the hobby.


there's isn't even an article on it: nobody in reefing knows that timeline.

The cleanest example Ive ever seen for such a timeline is from MSteven1, this thread, read from page 98 onward:
https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/bacteria-in-a-bottle-myth-or-fact.403226/page-98
his showed full command ability on month 4 of wait time, we don't know how it would have worked on month 1 but I'd love to see it tested by anyone

 

[Garf]

LFS gave me a deal on live rock, so I added that instead of dry rock

Yeah, that will help, lol

 

[Tenelen]

Yeah, that will help, lol

Well my friend who owns said LFS broke down my 150 a few months ago, and I gave him all the rock from the 150 (my physical disability made it to hard to maintain the 150 thus why I moved to a 50gal AIO much easier to maintain). So he let me take any of the live rock I needed for this tank.

 

[Garf]

Well my friend who owns said LFS broke down my 150 a few months ago, and I gave him all the rock from the 150 (my physical disability made it to hard to maintain the 150 thus why I moved to a 50gal AIO much easier to maintain). So he let me take any of the live rock I needed for this tank.

So it's taken 3 days to make any impact on ammonia? How much ammonia did you add? Cheers

 

[Tenelen]

So it's taken 3 days to make any impact on ammonia? How much ammonia did you add? Cheers

4 drops per gallon at 50 gallons so 200 drops till it tested up to 5 ppm. Also have been testing Ammonia and Nitrite daily to monitor progression. I am currently standing at 1.5-2 ppm of Ammonia atm and around 2-2.5 PPM of Nitrite as of this morning.

 

[RocketEngineer]

4 drops per gallon at 50 gallons so 200 drops till it tested up to 5 ppm. Also have been testing Ammonia and Nitrite daily to monitor progression. I am currently standing at 1.5-2 ppm of Ammonia atm and around 2-2.5 PPM of Nitrite as of this morning.

Please don’t go that high. 1-2 ppm of ammonia is more than enough to start the process.

 

[Garf]

4 drops per gallon at 50 gallons so 200 drops till it tested up to 5 ppm. Also have been testing Ammonia and Nitrite daily to monitor progression. I am currently standing at 1.5-2 ppm of Ammonia atm and around 2-2.5 PPM of Nitrite as of this morning.

That's good info, thanks

 

[BeanAnimal]

I'll go one step further in saying that in that month time even without adding an ammonia source the tank would be cycled. Just through what enters the tank from the air.

This is exactly how my tank was "cycled" 20+ years ago. I placed the sand and reefer rock, filled it with water and let it run for a month or two while I worked on the basement and saved money for the needed equipment.

I don't recall how long it took for the cycle to kick off or complete, but it was long before anything was added to the tank.

The lights were turned on at some point after that and some live sand (maybe a cup) from a club members tank was added along with some fish and a bunch of donated frags.

It was not until years later when we hosted MACNA that actual live rock (Fiji and Tonga) were added as there was piles of it left over after MACNA teardown.

 

[KC2020]

This is exactly how my tank was "cycled" 20+ years ago. I placed the sand and reefer rock, filled it with water and let it run for a month or two while I worked on the basement and saved money for the needed equipment.

I don't recall how long it took for the cycle to kick off or complete, but it was long before anything was added to the tank.

The lights were turned on at some point after that and some live sand (maybe a cup) from a club members tank was added along with some fish and a bunch of donated frags.

It was not until years later when we hosted MACNA that actual live rock (Fiji and Tonga) were added as there was piles of it left over after MACNA teardown.

So the live sand was incidental. OK, sure. I love a good fish story.