Biota regal angel, yes or no?

areefer01

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I’m just saying that if you take two Regal Angelfish from the Red Sea, there is a 100% probability that they are going to be yellow bellied. And if those two angelfish mate, the offspring have a 100% probability of being yellow bellied. Any variations from this scientific fact is just BS. Thank you.

As I said - you should give it a try.

In your case about all I can possibly agree on is that you want a Regal from a certain place. And when you purchase it, for X price, that is what you expect. Makes sense and I see nothing wrong with that (not that you are asking for justification).

Personally speaking it doesn't matter to me and I'd grab a captive raised any day. But that is just me.
 

bruno3047

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As I said - you should give it a try.

In your case about all I can possibly agree on is that you want a Regal from a certain place. And when you purchase it, for X price, that is what you expect. Makes sense and I see nothing wrong with that (not that you are asking for justification).

Personally speaking it doesn't matter to me and I'd grab a captive raised any day. But that is just me.
Thank you.
 

Wildreefs

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Yes - here is the info from Biota - this is what they are eating there. As noted above you can always email them for clarity and they will let you know what they are feeding exactly. This also may help with those discussing looks.

I understand the price is high but please remember the amount of effort that breeders are going through to provide these animals. It isn't just provide it is all the IP getting them spawning, or collecting pairs, or collecting things that float to grow, to working with locals and laws and processes to bring these to us. If it wasn't for them we wouldn't have the yellow tang.

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it’s not that these fish are expensive to begin with l, the cost is relatively low from the breeder. It’s the 5-6x mark up here , newest fad, just like any new release Acro. The money you’re buying them with isn’t going to the breeder or r and d, the guys getting them for $100 and selling them for 7-800
 

areefer01

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it’s not that these fish are expensive to begin with l, the cost is relatively low from the breeder. It’s the 5-6x mark up here , newest fad, just like any new release Acro. The money you’re buying them with isn’t going to the breeder or r and d, the guys getting them for $100 and selling them for 7-800

I'm not sure I understand your point here or what you are saying. This isn't a fad. It is all about IP cost to get a production line for captive breeding or raising fish to the hobbyist. They are not just 'swagging a number because we'll pay for it. That belongs to the 1/4" frags people are buying under heavy saturated light with made up names.

This is a lot different. And there is a process around availability among other things that set the price. Can you tell me how much you will pay for a non captive bred / raised Yellow Tang? How about a Golden Cuban Basslet? You can't get the yellow tang anymore unless you are buying it from a hobbyist or LFS that has had it pre-ban. The only source is Biota for 150 bucks. Yes, gone are the days of a $14.00 tang...

How about that Golden Cuban Basslet - in the US? Used to run 6k, then 4k, and now they are captive raised/bred and for $600 bucks. I believe they are more readily available in Europe though since they aren't banned. Never the less the price isn't made up.

As with everything else there will be a premium for initial product. As they work through the demand prices will come down. Give them some time.
 

Wildreefs

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I'm not sure I understand your point here or what you are saying. This isn't a fad. It is all about IP cost to get a production line for captive breeding or raising fish to the hobbyist. They are not just 'swagging a number because we'll pay for it. That belongs to the 1/4" frags people are buying under heavy saturated light with made up names.

This is a lot different. And there is a process around availability among other things that set the price. Can you tell me how much you will pay for a non captive bred / raised Yellow Tang? How about a Golden Cuban Basslet? You can't get the yellow tang anymore unless you are buying it from a hobbyist or LFS that has had it pre-ban. The only source is Biota for 150 bucks. Yes, gone are the days of a $14.00 tang...

How about that Golden Cuban Basslet - in the US? Used to run 6k, then 4k, and now they are captive raised/bred and for $600 bucks. I believe they are more readily available in Europe though since they aren't banned. Never the less the price isn't made up.

As with everything else there will be a premium for initial product. As they work through the demand prices will come down. Give them some time.
If I get something at cost for $100, and I spin around and retail it for 600-700, not sure what you call it, but I believe that to be robbery
 

bruno3047

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For all of you Regal Angelfish enthusiasts, just wanted to post this here for your perusal. A little something I found regarding what was formerly my all-yellow ~four year old Regal beauty. Link to the source also provided.

“In some variations, the blue and black in the coloration is missing, resulting in a yellow body with white stripes! The anal fin in this variation is white and orange or darker yellow than the body. The upper back of the dorsal fin is missing the blue, and has clear and yellow mottling. One wild and crazy color patterned Regal Angelfish was found in Papua New Guinea, where the white striping looks more like a squiggly road map”


Our hobby would be much better served if people would do a little research on their questions instead of just asking their friends and then accusing other aquarists of knowingly trying to cheat them based on what their friends told them. Asking your friends what they think is not research.
 
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i cant think

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I wouldn’t call it nitpicking. Poor planning on their part is probably more like it. They should’ve segregated the various subspecies and marketed them accordingly. I guarantee you, many more people think this is a better idea than just lumping all the various subspecies together. If you go to any reputable dealer’s website, you’ll see that the price discrepancy between yellow bellied and gray belly Regals is significant.
Biota mentioned about what they couldn’t do this somewhere in this thread but the only thing I remember is that the parent specimens have the potential of having genes of the two variants.
 

reeftwincities

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It's just subjective. I'm willing to pay a price for captive bred fish. It's not performative, but strategic. I've never had any disease buying fish directly from biota. I also enjoy watching the fish grow from basically fry to adult size fish. If I can get a 1.5" regal angelfish that has already transitioned to frozen foods, that IS worth the mark-up in price over a wild caught specimen collected who know hows that may/may not eat (something I find extremely stressful to deal with). These are my pets, not ornaments. More power to those than can successfully take delicate fish from the ocean and successfully keep them for years, but I feel more comfortable/confident in my ability to achieve that via captive bred fish than wild caught.

I don't think Biota is trying to pull a fast one on anyone, just a business. They acknowledged that the regals may develop blue or yellow bellies, that the misbar patterns will likely disappear as the fish develop. That's a pretty honest seller, imho.
 

reeftwincities

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For all of you Regal Angelfish enthusiasts, just wanted to post this here for your perusal. A little something I found regarding what was formerly my all-yellow ~four year old Regal beauty. Link to the source also provided.

“In some variations, the blue and black in the coloration is missing, resulting in a yellow body with white stripes! The anal fin in this variation is white and orange or darker yellow than the body. The upper back of the dorsal fin is missing the blue, and has clear and yellow mottling. One wild and crazy color patterned Regal Angelfish was found in Papua New Guinea, where the white striping looks more like a squiggly road map”


Our hobby would be much better served if people would do a little research on their questions instead of just asking their friends and then accusing other aquarists of knowingly trying to cheat them based on what their friends told them. Asking your friends what they think is not research.
Also pulled from that page....

"These fish are wonderful to photograph in the wild, but unfortunately they are very difficult to keep and rarely survive in the home aquarium."
 

reeftwincities

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Could it be this simple? Balli just sourced their breeding pair of regals locally because well...they were local?

"Bali Aquarich’s first captive bred regal angelfish is the local grey chested P. d. diacanthus subspecies and the small baby regal angelfish are already showing the unmistakable golden yellow color and the dorsal eyespot is just beginning to become dark. One thing we’re curious to know is the age of these fish as some marine angelfish have extremely long larval duration periods – up to 120 days in debelius if memory serves us correctly, to as little as like 45 days for the Koran angelfish."

 

bruno3047

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Also pulled from that page....

"These fish are wonderful to photograph in the wild, but unfortunately they are very difficult to keep and rarely survive in the home aquarium."
That’s an older post, the Animal-World. I think it’s from the early 2000s. Copyright is 1998 to 2020. So they’re not aware of the new advances in fish-keeping in the last decade plus. And certainly not aware of captive breeding of Regal Angelfish. But it doesn’t change the fact that they recognized a morph of Regal with an all-yellow body and white stripes. Just like the one that I had. The point I was trying to make is that the fish I sold was not colored in that manner because it was malnutritioned or malformed, as was claimed by the buyer, based on his friends’ thoughts. It is a bonafide morph of that particular fish. Thank you for your input. It allowed me to clarify the point I’m trying to make. Please do not hesitate to post any other concerns or questions you might have. I welcome the challenge. I hope you welcome my response as well.
 
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bruno3047

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Could it be this simple? Balli just sourced their breeding pair of regals locally because well...they were local?

"Bali Aquarich’s first captive bred regal angelfish is the local grey chested P. d. diacanthus subspecies and the small baby regal angelfish are already showing the unmistakable golden yellow color and the dorsal eyespot is just beginning to become dark. One thing we’re curious to know is the age of these fish as some marine angelfish have extremely long larval duration periods – up to 120 days in debelius if memory serves us correctly, to as little as like 45 days for the Koran angelfish."

Amazing the things you uncover when you do a little reading. That would qualify as research.
 

bruno3047

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Biota mentioned about what they couldn’t do this somewhere in this thread but the only thing I remember is that the parent specimens have the potential of having genes of the two variants.
I think someone just posted that they source their parent Regals locally. Some research suggested that the gray belly was endemic to the Pacific and the yellow belly to the Red Sea. The two morphs met in the Indian ocean and that’s why some parts of the Indian ocean have both morphs. The research, however was not definitive. An unproven theory. I can post the link if you like.
 

i cant think

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I think someone just posted that they source their parent Regals locally. Some research suggested that the gray belly was endemic to the Pacific and the yellow belly to the Red Sea. The two morphs met in the Indian ocean and that’s why some parts of the Indian ocean have both morphs. The research, however was not definitive. An unproven theory. I can post the link if you like.
I’m pretty sure that where biota is located is also where the two subspecies cross over so it would make sense if they were locally sourced as to why they don’t seperate the offspring.

Also, that’s interesting to hear that there are other areas where the two species meet as I was always under the impression they only ever met around Indonesia, Solomon is, and Papau New Guinea.
 

bruno3047

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I just want to add one more thing to this thread. The buyer who drove 200+ miles from Miami to my home to buy my Regal, after seeing multiple pictures of it on this board, was extremely happy when he left my house with the fish. Ecstatic. It wasn’t until he got back home and showed the fish to his friends and got their thoughts that he decided that I had cheated him. OK. I’m done.
 

Majolica15

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@bruno3047, you're making assumptions about genetics that just can't be made without actual research (and even then, tbh). As far as I'm aware, we don't know why different color morphs exist in different areas. Obviously, genetics often plays a role, but that may not be the only contributing factor. A certain color may be more successful in an area, due to issues beyond genetics, which leads to that color being far more common. A certain color could be caused by the unique diet in that area. Do we KNOW that there are no gray bellied regals in the red sea? We know they aren't collected, but does that mean they don't exist, or just that they aren't collected? Especially considering that the yellow bellied ones sell for a higher price? You simply cannot make an assumption on the genetics of a fish, based purely on their appearance. That's not science. Science is doing the research to PROVE a theory, not just making assumptions about it. Don't make me get my scientist friend involved in this.... :p

Side note, did you know that certain colors in certain animals aren't based on genetics at all? White markings in horses are often based on their position in the womb. Cloned horses can have totally different white markings! That's just random information that I find fascinating. Btw, I hope this doesn't come off mean, that's not how I intend it, but I just wanted to explain why it might not be as simple as putting two of the yellow bellied regals together, and getting 100% yellow bellied offspring. And the truth is, I don't know. I haven't tried it. But I can see possibilities that might result in other outcomes.
 

bruno3047

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@bruno3047, you're making assumptions about genetics that just can't be made without actual research (and even then, tbh). As far as I'm aware, we don't know why different color morphs exist in different areas. Obviously, genetics often plays a role, but that may not be the only contributing factor. A certain color may be more successful in an area, due to issues beyond genetics, which leads to that color being far more common. A certain color could be caused by the unique diet in that area. Do we KNOW that there are no gray bellied regals in the red sea? We know they aren't collected, but does that mean they don't exist, or just that they aren't collected? Especially considering that the yellow bellied ones sell for a higher price? You simply cannot make an assumption on the genetics of a fish, based purely on their appearance. That's not science. Science is doing the research to PROVE a theory, not just making assumptions about it. Don't make me get my scientist friend involved in this.... :p

Side note, did you know that certain colors in certain animals aren't based on genetics at all? White markings in horses are often based on their position in the womb. Cloned horses can have totally different white markings! That's just random information that I find fascinating. Btw, I hope this doesn't come off mean, that's not how I intend it, but I just wanted to explain why it might not be as simple as putting two of the yellow bellied regals together, and getting 100% yellow bellied offspring. And the truth is, I don't know. I haven't tried it. But I can see possibilities that might result in other outcomes.
The actual research is there. I challenge you to go find it. I’ll give you a week. If you are unsuccessful, post back here and I’ll give it to you. By the way. The yellow belly lineage of Red Sea Regal Angelfish has been traced back 1.4 million years to the Pleistocene post-glaciation period. Good luck in your scholarly search.
 

Majolica15

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The actual research is there. I challenge you to go find it. I’ll give you a week. If you are unsuccessful, post back here and I’ll give it to you. By the way. The yellow belly lineage of Red Sea Regal Angelfish has been traced back 1.4 million years to the Pleistocene post-glaciation period. Good luck in your scholarly search.
I'm going to be honest with you. I don't have time. I work a full time job, and I'm in a masters program. Two actually. And pursuing a couple professional certifications, in addition to taking care of my animals, and dealing with a serious injury (that's seriously affecting my sleep). With that said, I would be interested in reading this research, but only if you can manage to share it in a far less patronizing way. :rolleyes:
 

bruno3047

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I'm going to be honest with you. I don't have time. I work a full time job, and I'm in a masters program. Two actually. And pursuing a couple professional certifications, in addition to taking care of my animals, and dealing with a serious injury (that's seriously affecting my sleep). With that said, I would be interested in reading this research, but only if you can manage to share it in a far less patronizing way. :rolleyes:
Lol. I’m not going to share it. You can challenge me but I can’t challenge you? Have a nice evening. I hope your injury gets better. I know how that can be from personal experience.
 

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