Birdsnest RTN

[BeanAnimal]

I think the vibrio associated with coral tissue necrosis are "Vibrio coralliilyticus" and "Vibrio harveyi", but I couldn't find any published evidence that these species use formate. Vibrio natriegens seems to be capable of using formate but is not associated with coral disease. However, these are just my finding from a quick websearch. I'm no expert regarding this topic at all.

They are sometimes present, but do not appear to be the cause, but rather opportunistically taking advantage of a situation. RTN/STN are more the symptom instead of disease.

 

[EnterName]

I dosed 10 ml per 24 h period at 2.5 ml every 6 hours. I believed this to be a slow start.

Yes, this absolutely is a slow start and theoretically fine. It is approx 0.2°dH, a difference which many alkalinity tests might not even detect reliably.

However, your alkalinity requirements are very likely far higher and your alkalinity decreased (probably over multiple days). I assume you just forgot to measure alkalinity to dial in the right amount of AfR for a few days and suddenly the alkalinity was at 6.1°dH ... That's rough.

 

[BeanAnimal]

It was from AI and other sources confirmed that the Alk swing could and in this case not show up on my Hanna Test and also Salifert test kits. My alk has swung more with a water change than what showed on my tests. I was trying to understand why. That was the best explanation I could find why the addition on AFR killed my SPS.

AI will give you all kinds of reasons, it is repeating what it reads on forums. It may or may not be true. We don't know what the actual cause was. It could be the alk drop, it could be the rapid rise, or a combination of both. The difference between it and most of us is that we will say we don't know, it will repeat what some of us say as an authoritative fact. So we in general don't like to see AI responses posted here. You are free to use it of course, just be careful of the answers.

Hope that makes sense.

For what its worth. my alkalinity swings form low 6 to over 11 over the course of months. I correct sometimes as much as 2 dKh per day. I don't have a lot STN but it happens here and there and I can't pin it on any event. The only RTN that I have had in 10 - 15 years in this thank is new coral that is introduced and if it is going to happen it happens within 24-48 hours.

 

[drmor22]

I am not trying to "dog" AFR. I am just warning to beware when starting something new. It happened so fast.

 

[EnterName]

They are sometimes present, but do not appear to be the cause, but rather opportunistically taking advantage of a situation. RTN/STN are more the symptom instead of disease.

I think at first they thought some ciliates were responsible but then they found that the ciliates were rather opportunistically and in reality it had more to do with the vibrios. However, it really has been a time, since I've been reading about RTN and STN, so you are probably right. I just wanted to respond to the question if these vibrios might have been fueld by the available formate, which I deem unlikely (but of course possible).

It happened so fast.

Do you know how many days you dosed AfR before you measured the 6.1°dH or any issues became visible?

 

[Dan_P]

Do us all a favor, please don't post AI results directly. They may not be in this case, but they can be very wrong and authoritative

I suspect your major alk swing in a short period time caused the stress and the polyp bailout.


Anytime you switch dosing from now on, be very careful about understanding the product and how it works. Hard way to learn a lesson, but it will stick with you.


No, not all bacteria do, but your reef is almost certain to have them and like most bacteria will expand to the new food source and consume all of it.

The Vibrio question is actually very good.

From what I have read (just now) some species of Vibrio can certainly use formate as food. I can't tell you if they will use it more efficiently and outcompete other bacteria in your system or any other. They are too many variables to speculate how the overall balance of species adapts over time to format based dosing. It would make an interesting Aquabiomics based study @Dan_P may have interest. He always wanted to run an infectious disease lab.

One of my dream jobs.

Dosing formate is comparable to dosing ethanol or vinegar in that it lowers nitrate and phosphate. More generally it reduces inorganic nitrogen and phosphate, very approximately, first ammonia than nitrate. Did the dosing really change the alkalinity enough to kill a coral? Or were the corals already goners and the increased bacteria growth finished them off more quickly?

 

[drmor22]

This is kind of an iteration. My tank was doing wonderful, Sunday night (Started AFR). My red Golden Eye had some recession because I moved it too close to the lights. I moved it lower and it seemed to be ok. I was using the seachem two part and wanted to go with a dosing pump. I added the dosing pump and switched to AFR.

Day 4

Day 5

Day 6 Completely gone.

Day 8 this Torch is completely gone. Same RTN

 

[BeanAnimal]

It can be very frustrating, especially when there is no definitive answer or clear correction.