Birdsnest RTN

[drmor22]

This has occurred in two days. I grew this from just two stalks in two years. I was out of the country for three weeks. I came back and my alk was low at 6.1 but nothing showed any signs of trouble. I decided to get a dose pump and started All for Reef at 10 ml per day (2.5ml per dose). Alk really did not go up and I was not trying to make drastic changes. I just wanted to bring it up slowly. Day 5 i lost 25 %, Day 6 another 25%. I suspect it will all die. The funny thing, I never test. I just do my weekly 10 gallon water changes on a 75 gallon tank. I wish I had not chased numbers when all was really well. At least what I could tell. Nothing else is stressed out. Makes me sick. And I listed to ChatGPT for all of these recommendations. It seemed logical but wiped out my large birdsnest. I have another fist size colony that looks great, it broke off of the main colony and grew. Thoughts?
Zone 1 from the back, white skeleton, Zone 2 dead tissue soon to be white. Zone 3 still good but I suspect it will die.

 

[KrisReef]

I would remove the necrotic zones, and maybe just a little further into the living and hope that it stops.

Death by zones like this isn't typical, usually starts from the bottom and move up the branches, not a slow moving death across the colony?

But I would remove the dead and dying and hope that it halts instead of waiting for it to progress with zones 1 & 2 getting larger. Zone 3 might be spared?

 

[drmor22]

I was too late. It is completely gone in 3 days. I have a

fist size that broke off of this colony that seems to be doing fine.

 

[drmor22]

I am so angry a myself. I grew this from 2 tiny stalks over three years. I just looked at the picture. I just did regular water changes, cleaned my filters. As soon as I measured and started dosing small amounts of reef for one, it died within 3 days. My alk only moved 0.7 over this time. Whatever is in this reef for one, my birdsnest hated it.you can see in the image on the left how small it was.

 

[Dburr1014]

This has occurred in two days. I grew this from just two stalks in two years. I was out of the country for three weeks. I came back and my alk was low at 6.1 but nothing showed any signs of trouble.

Next time, dose to get it out of the red zone. You can dose up to 1dkh per day if needed. Typical being 0.5 dose but up to 1dkh is okay. Red zone I consider below 7dkh. Even doing two days of 0.5 is better than a week of below 7dkh.

I decided to get a dose pump and started All for Reef at 10 ml per day (2.5ml per dose). Alk really did not go up and I was not trying to make drastic changes. I just wanted to bring it up slowly. Day 5 i lost 25 %, Day 6 another 25%. I suspect it will all die.

If that is your suspicion, frags and branches now remount them.

The funny thing, I never test. I just do my weekly 10 gallon water changes on a 75 gallon tank. I wish I had not chased numbers when all was really well.

I would test alk at minimum, 1 time a month IF everything is typically stable.

At least what I could tell. Nothing else is stressed out. Makes me sick. And I listed to ChatGPT for all of these recommendations. It seemed logical but wiped out my large birdsnest. I have another fist size colony that looks great, it broke off of the main colony and grew. Thoughts?
Zone 1 from the back, white skeleton, Zone 2 dead tissue soon to be white. Zone 3 still good but I suspect it will die.

My finale thoughts:
I go for a week at a time on vacations but always ensure tank numbers are good and stable before hand leading up to my departure. This way I hope to not get any surprises on return. Having said that, it's hard to avoid everything cuz you never know.

 

[BryanM]

Whatever is in this reef for one

What product is this?

 

[drmor22]

What product is this?

I am sorry. I quoted the wrong product. This is what I used.

Tropic Marin All-for-Reef Liquid 500 ml.

This is the explanation of what happened.

The readings are delayed because All-For-Reef does not contain actual alkalinity inside the bottle.

Instead, it contains a chemical compound called calcium formate.
Here is exactly why that delays your test kit:

• It is invisible to test kits: Aquarium test kits only measure ionic carbonate and bicarbonate. Calcium formate does not register on an alkalinity test kit when it is first added to the water.
• Bacteria must convert it first: Once dosed, live bacteria in your tank must physically eat and process the formate, converting it into ionic carbonate over 12 to 24 hours.
• The "Ghost" accumulation: Because your test kit showed no change initially, you kept dosing 10 mL every day. The un-converted formate quietly piled up in the water column like a ticking time bomb.
• The sudden crash: As soon as your bacteria multiplied enough to handle the extra food, they processed all the built-up formate at once, triggering a massive, rapid chemical spike that caught your corals completely off guard.

 

[BryanM]

There are a lot of reefers that use this product, including me for over a year, and I used it to maintain alk at 9.0.

 

[drmor22]

There are a lot of reefers that use this product, including me for over a year, and I used it to maintain alk at 9.0.

Maybe starting with it is ok, but my corals obviously did not like it. I was only dosing at 10 ml per day. Day 5, dead.

 

[BryanM]

Maybe starting with it is ok, but my corals obviously did not like it. I was only dosing at 10 ml per day. Day 5, dead.

I am sorry for your loss.

ALK stability, IMO, is the cornerstone of keeping corals happy. 6.1 is on the low side, but if you kept it at 7 then I wouldn't think that was an issue. But if you kept it at 9, a drop to 6.1 could easily account for what happened as well.

 

[drmor22]

Looks like I am about to lose my expensive torch also now. That stuff created havoc in my tank for some reason. It sure did not show up on my Hanna test kits as crazy numbers. But....

 

[TokenReefer]

Is the bacteria that consume the formate in the product as well?

 

[TokenReefer]

Do all bacteria consume formate? What if formate consumers aren't present? What if you have a pathogenic vibrio species that enjoys formate and it proliferates? Is that possible? Sorry nothing but questions here

 

[drmor22]

The bacteria responsible for making Tropic Marin All-For-Reef work are already living inside your tank water and on your tank's surfaces (live rock, sand, and bio-media). [1, 2]
There is zero live bacteria inside the All-For-Reef bottle. [1]

How it Actually Works
All-For-Reef supplies calcium and alkalinity using a compound called calcium formate. [1]

1. When you dose the clear liquid into your aquarium, the calcium is immediately available to your corals. [1, 2]
2. However, the alkalinity part (the formate) remains "hidden" until the heterotrophic bacteria naturally living inside your tank consume it. [1, 2]
3. As your tank's bacteria eat and break down the formate, they naturally release bio-available carbonate/alkalinity and carbon dioxide (CO₂) directly into the water column. [1, 2]

Because this conversion process relies entirely on your aquarium's active microbiome, it usually takes anywhere from a few hours to a day for a dose of All-For-Reef to fully reflect on an alkalinity test kit. [1, 2]

 

[reefpanda]

What's your NO3 & PO4?

 

[drmor22]

waiting on my phosphate tester. Nitrates are 18. i know that is a little high, but is where they normally run. I have a large fish population. I do not have an algae problem. I sometimes have some cyano but it kind of comes and goes. I only had to use chemiclean maybe two years ago. everything else seems fine. My fire shrimp and cleaner molted. my bubble tip split into two new anenomes. Clam looks wonderful. I don't know. I add that AFR and all hell broke loose on my SPS. I lost my torch that I have had for over a year. I now see signs on my giant Hammer. See image for the other corals thriving. I feel like throwing up over my losses that were all my fault adding something I should not have. If it is not broke do not fix it and I did not listen.

 

[BeanAnimal]

The bacteria responsible for making Tropic Marin All-For-Reef work are already living inside your tank water and on your tank's surfaces (live rock, sand, and bio-media). [1, 2]
There is zero live bacteria inside the All-For-Reef bottle. [1]

How it Actually Works
All-For-Reef supplies calcium and alkalinity using a compound called calcium formate. [1]

1. When you dose the clear liquid into your aquarium, the calcium is immediately available to your corals. [1, 2]
2. However, the alkalinity part (the formate) remains "hidden" until the heterotrophic bacteria naturally living inside your tank consume it. [1, 2]
3. As your tank's bacteria eat and break down the formate, they naturally release bio-available carbonate/alkalinity and carbon dioxide (CO₂) directly into the water column. [1, 2]

Because this conversion process relies entirely on your aquarium's active microbiome, it usually takes anywhere from a few hours to a day for a dose of All-For-Reef to fully reflect on an alkalinity test kit. [1, 2]

Do us all a favor, please don't post AI results directly. They may not be in this case, but they can be very wrong and authoritative

I suspect your major alk swing in a short period time caused the stress and the polyp bailout.


Anytime you switch dosing from now on, be very careful about understanding the product and how it works. Hard way to learn a lesson, but it will stick with you.

Do all bacteria consume formate? What if formate consumers aren't present? What if you have a pathogenic vibrio species that enjoys formate and it proliferates? Is that possible? Sorry nothing but questions here

No, not all bacteria do, but your reef is almost certain to have them and like most bacteria will expand to the new food source and consume all of it.

The Vibrio question is actually very good.

From what I have read (just now) some species of Vibrio can certainly use formate as food. I can't tell you if they will use it more efficiently and outcompete other bacteria in your system or any other. They are too many variables to speculate how the overall balance of species adapts over time to format based dosing. It would make an interesting Aquabiomics based study @Dan_P may have interest. He always wanted to run an infectious disease lab.

 

[EnterName]

@drmor22
I am really sorry this is happening to your tank
Many people here use All for Reef (AfR) and don't have any problems (I just recently switched to AfR myself). It might just be a coincidence, or (if your are really unlucky) a bad batch.

The alkalinity effect is slightly delayed, but we are talking hours, not days as far as I'm aware. It is maybe even better this way as alkalinity is increased over time instead of suddenly jumping upward. Tropic Marin recommends starting with 14.19mL daily for your 75gal tank, and then increasing according to your tank's requirements:

If you know how much alkalinity you added before switching to AfR it should be easy to calculate the equivalent amount AfR. I can help with that, if you want . The actual consumption might be lower now due to the struggling corals, but we can adjust for that as well.

To fix your ongoing issue, I would get an ICP test as soon as possible (preferably ICP-MS as it offers better insight into trace elements than an ICP-OES test). Test kits can sometimes report faulty results and there are many important parameters we cannot really test at home. Sometimes a pollutant is causing issues (copper, lead, cadmium, and zinc for example are highly toxic to corals). Other times, it is just a missing essential trace element.

What if you have a pathogenic vibrio species that enjoys formate and it proliferates? Is that possible?

The Vibrio question is actually very good.

I think the vibrio associated with coral tissue necrosis are "Vibrio coralliilyticus" and "Vibrio harveyi", but I couldn't find any published evidence that these species use formate. Vibrio natriegens seems to be capable of using formate but is not associated with coral disease. However, these are just my finding from a quick websearch. I'm no expert regarding this topic at all.

 

[drmor22]

It was from AI and other sources confirmed that the Alk swing could and in this case not show up on my Hanna Test and also Salifert test kits. My alk has swung more with a water change than what showed on my tests. I was trying to understand why. That was the best explanation I could find why the addition on AFR killed my SPS.

 

[drmor22]

@drmor22
I am really sorry this is happening to your tank
Many people here use All for Reef (AfR) and don't have any problems (I just recently switched to AfR myself). It might just be a coincidence, or (if your are really unlucky) a bad batch.

The alkalinity effect is slightly delayed, but we are talking hours, not days as far as I'm aware. It is maybe even better this way as alkalinity is increased over time instead of suddenly jumping upward. Tropic Marin recommends starting with 14.19mL daily for your 75gal tank, and then increasing according to your tank's requirements:

If you know how much alkalinity you added before switching to AfR it should be easy to calculate the equivalent amount AfR. I can help with that, if you want . The actual consumption might be lower now due to the struggling corals, but we can adjust for that as well.

To fix your ongoing issue, I would get an ICP test as soon as possible (preferably ICP-MS as it offers better insight into trace elements than an ICP-OES test). Test kits can sometimes report faulty results and there are many important parameters we cannot really test at home. Sometimes a pollutant is causing issues (copper, lead, cadmium, and zinc for example are highly toxic to corals). Other times, it is just a missing essential trace element.



I think the vibrio associated with coral tissue necrosis are "Vibrio coralliilyticus" and "Vibrio harveyi", but I couldn't find any published evidence that these species use formate. Vibrio natriegens seems to be capable of using formate but is not associated with coral disease. However, these are just my finding from a quick websearch. I'm no expert regarding this topic at all.

I dosed 10 ml per 24 h period at 2.5 ml every 6 hours. I believed this to be a slow start.