Bolus dosing

[Dibi]

It’s cheap….compared to magic powders and potions

exactly more kalk = less money to FM, this is a fact.

 

[Oldreefer44]

Yes it is much cheaper since Bolus, by my calculation, is costing about $.11 a day.

 

[Pod_01]

exactly more kalk = less money to FM, this is a fact.

I think they have that covered:

Next BOLUS for Kalk…

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I think they have that covered:

Next BOLUS for Kalk…

Instant old tank syndrome in a jar!

 

[IntrinsicReef]

It does seem like he may be confusing AFR and bolus dosing of bicarbonate.

I downloaded a transcript of the interview and just cleaned up some duplicate words and added a bit of punctuation for readability. It is otherwise verbatim. He talked earlier in the interview about how the precipitates formed by Kalkwasser feed the biofilm on the rocks and surfaces, and the biofilm interferes with the crystallized sodium bicarbonate on the rock surfaces. Which is why Kalkwasser can't be used with Bolus (even though I and many other reefers use Kalk and 3 part every day). Looking foward to hearing your thoughts!

"So the clue is there right in the science um now the big reveal is really our understanding of how bolus works. How do we get from a single big dose let's say of 2 DKH but it only adds 0.4DKH or less sometimes and it creates this flat alkalinity. How is that possible? And it took us a long time to to to find out. The answer lies in a very special property of sodium bicarbonate. When you add it to seawater, even though it's a liquid it doesn't dissolve, it stays in a form in the water and it's called a dense layer precursor phase, okay a DLP. And this science is so new um is you know the papers were really only written about this this year. But actually inadvertently we were doing this 30 years ago and we were creating these amazingly stable systems by putting scoops of bicarb into the system not knowing at all what was happening with the chemistry. Yeah but now because we've got all these tools we can see the effect of what it does. So the bicarbonate what it does is it creates like a micro Crystal. You can't see it, but it's adhering to a surface and that surface has to be relatively clear of that bacteria that we were talking about, that biofilm. And what it does is, as the alkalinity is used, it cools (sic?) off on those crystals. Okay, and there's a very special piece of chemistry which is um it was known as a kinetic constraint of um of carbon dioxide. So basically, the car (audio lags momentarily) this chemistry but effectively it means that it takes these crystals, it takes from these little bicarbonate crystals in preference to bringing in carbon dioxide from the atmosphere. And that's why the pH is maintained with the bolus system. That's why we have nearly 3,000 people enjoying good pH in the tanks that they've never had before. Okay, so there's no way you can say it doesn't work uh because we've got the proof in the users. But this is what they're experiencing when you dose the alkalinity it's creating this dense uh this dense liquid precursor phase onto the surfaces and it calls off on that over the day. And I don't think we've ever explained that before um but this is the magic of how it works." -Doug Dorrat on "Rappin with ReefBum" 10/29/24

 

[BeanAnimal]

I personally think these guys just keep building layer upon layer of utter BS by purposeful mischaracterization of tangentially relevant scientific concepts and people suck it up because they don’t have the tools to refute it.

 

[trevorhiller]

I downloaded a transcript of the interview and just cleaned up some duplicate words and added a bit of punctuation for readability. It is otherwise verbatim. He talked earlier in the interview about how the precipitates formed by Kalkwasser feed the biofilm on the rocks and surfaces, and the biofilm interferes with the crystallized sodium bicarbonate on the rock surfaces. Which is why Kalkwasser can't be used with Bolus (even though I and many other reefers use Kalk and 3 part every day). Looking foward to hearing your thoughts!

"So the clue is there right in the science um now the big reveal is really our understanding of how bolus works. How do we get from a single big dose let's say of 2 DKH but it only adds 0.4DKH or less sometimes and it creates this flat alkalinity. How is that possible? And it took us a long time to to to find out. The answer lies in a very special property of sodium bicarbonate. When you add it to seawater, even though it's a liquid it doesn't dissolve, it stays in a form in the water and it's called a dense layer precursor phase, okay a DLP. And this science is so new um is you know the papers were really only written about this this year. But actually inadvertently we were doing this 30 years ago and we were creating these amazingly stable systems by putting scoops of bicarb into the system not knowing at all what was happening with the chemistry. Yeah but now because we've got all these tools we can see the effect of what it does. So the bicarbonate what it does is it creates like a micro Crystal. You can't see it, but it's adhering to a surface and that surface has to be relatively clear of that bacteria that we were talking about, that biofilm. And what it does is, as the alkalinity is used, it cools (sic?) off on those crystals. Okay, and there's a very special piece of chemistry which is um it was known as a kinetic constraint of um of carbon dioxide. So basically, the car (audio lags momentarily) this chemistry but effectively it means that it takes these crystals, it takes from these little bicarbonate crystals in preference to bringing in carbon dioxide from the atmosphere. And that's why the pH is maintained with the bolus system. That's why we have nearly 3,000 people enjoying good pH in the tanks that they've never had before. Okay, so there's no way you can say it doesn't work uh because we've got the proof in the users. But this is what they're experiencing when you dose the alkalinity it's creating this dense uh this dense liquid precursor phase onto the surfaces and it calls off on that over the day. And I don't think we've ever explained that before um but this is the magic of how it works." -Doug Dorrat on "Rappin with ReefBum" 10/29/24

I started watching this episode because I usually enjoy listening to the show, but I had to turn it off because it was so stupid.

I also found it curious that Keith's usual third sponsor (Fauna Marin) was conveniently replaced by Polyp Lab for this episode. Perhaps to give the illusion of no conflict of interest even though it was clearly a marketing episode for Fauna Marin.

I don't understand how people can't see through this BS.

I personally think these guys just keep building layer upon layer of utter BS by purposeful mischaracterization of tangentially relevant scientific concepts and people suck it up because they don’t have the tools to refute it.

Similar to the magic layer of bicarbonate micro crystals

 

[Hans-Werner]

Well, let’s ask and see what the man himself says about that. Lol

@Hans-Werner

Yes, I have a professional biological background and I am not a chemist.

Most chemical things I have contributed to reefing are rather simple. In my eyes stoichiometric equations are more or less elementary school mathematics. I liked and I was good at set theory in elementary school. Maybe this did help. ;) :grinning-face-with-smiling-eyes:

 

[Pod_01]

I downloaded a transcript of the interview and just cleaned up some duplicate words and added a bit of punctuation for readability. It is otherwise verbatim. He talked earlier in the interview about how the precipitates formed by Kalkwasser feed the biofilm on the rocks and surfaces, and the biofilm interferes with the crystallized sodium bicarbonate on the rock surfaces. Which is why Kalkwasser can't be used with Bolus (even though I and many other reefers use Kalk and 3 part every day). Looking foward to hearing your thoughts!

"So the clue is there right in the science um now the big reveal is really our understanding of how bolus works. How do we get from a single big dose let's say of 2 DKH but it only adds 0.4DKH or less sometimes and it creates this flat alkalinity. How is that possible? And it took us a long time to to to find out. The answer lies in a very special property of sodium bicarbonate. When you add it to seawater, even though it's a liquid it doesn't dissolve, it stays in a form in the water and it's called a dense layer precursor phase, okay a DLP. And this science is so new um is you know the papers were really only written about this this year. But actually inadvertently we were doing this 30 years ago and we were creating these amazingly stable systems by putting scoops of bicarb into the system not knowing at all what was happening with the chemistry. Yeah but now because we've got all these tools we can see the effect of what it does. So the bicarbonate what it does is it creates like a micro Crystal. You can't see it, but it's adhering to a surface and that surface has to be relatively clear of that bacteria that we were talking about, that biofilm. And what it does is, as the alkalinity is used, it cools (sic?) off on those crystals. Okay, and there's a very special piece of chemistry which is um it was known as a kinetic constraint of um of carbon dioxide. So basically, the car (audio lags momentarily) this chemistry but effectively it means that it takes these crystals, it takes from these little bicarbonate crystals in preference to bringing in carbon dioxide from the atmosphere. And that's why the pH is maintained with the bolus system. That's why we have nearly 3,000 people enjoying good pH in the tanks that they've never had before. Okay, so there's no way you can say it doesn't work uh because we've got the proof in the users. But this is what they're experiencing when you dose the alkalinity it's creating this dense uh this dense liquid precursor phase onto the surfaces and it calls off on that over the day. And I don't think we've ever explained that before um but this is the magic of how it works." -Doug Dorrat on "Rappin with ReefBum" 10/29/24

Thank you for sharing, I had to look up DLP and kinetic constraint of carbon dioxide. I used chatGPT so here it is:
DLP:

kinetic constraint of carbon dioxide:

Not sure if chatGPT is correct but based on what it states I am not understanding the relation of these concepts to BOLUS…
Maybe it is too early in the morning…

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I downloaded a transcript of the interview and just cleaned up some duplicate words and added a bit of punctuation for readability. It is otherwise verbatim. He talked earlier in the interview about how the precipitates formed by Kalkwasser feed the biofilm on the rocks and surfaces, and the biofilm interferes with the crystallized sodium bicarbonate on the rock surfaces. Which is why Kalkwasser can't be used with Bolus (even though I and many other reefers use Kalk and 3 part every day). Looking foward to hearing your thoughts!

"So the clue is there right in the science um now the big reveal is really our understanding of how bolus works. How do we get from a single big dose let's say of 2 DKH but it only adds 0.4DKH or less sometimes and it creates this flat alkalinity. How is that possible? And it took us a long time to to to find out. The answer lies in a very special property of sodium bicarbonate. When you add it to seawater, even though it's a liquid it doesn't dissolve, it stays in a form in the water and it's called a dense layer precursor phase, okay a DLP. And this science is so new um is you know the papers were really only written about this this year. But actually inadvertently we were doing this 30 years ago and we were creating these amazingly stable systems by putting scoops of bicarb into the system not knowing at all what was happening with the chemistry. Yeah but now because we've got all these tools we can see the effect of what it does. So the bicarbonate what it does is it creates like a micro Crystal. You can't see it, but it's adhering to a surface and that surface has to be relatively clear of that bacteria that we were talking about, that biofilm. And what it does is, as the alkalinity is used, it cools (sic?) off on those crystals. Okay, and there's a very special piece of chemistry which is um it was known as a kinetic constraint of um of carbon dioxide. So basically, the car (audio lags momentarily) this chemistry but effectively it means that it takes these crystals, it takes from these little bicarbonate crystals in preference to bringing in carbon dioxide from the atmosphere. And that's why the pH is maintained with the bolus system. That's why we have nearly 3,000 people enjoying good pH in the tanks that they've never had before. Okay, so there's no way you can say it doesn't work uh because we've got the proof in the users. But this is what they're experiencing when you dose the alkalinity it's creating this dense uh this dense liquid precursor phase onto the surfaces and it calls off on that over the day. And I don't think we've ever explained that before um but this is the magic of how it works." -Doug Dorrat on "Rappin with ReefBum" 10/29/24

Thank you very much for transcribing that.

There are a great many problems with that “explanation” and it does not make scientific sense to accept it as a viable theory.

Dense liquid precursor theory is merely a molecular level explanation of what happens in the very earliest stages of precipitation of something. In the absence of any seed crystal surfaces to initiate more precipitation on, a bunch of molecules need to come together rapidly to make a tiny bit of solid. The theory suggests that happens when local random concentrations result in a higher than average concentration over some small area, and in the “dense” area, several molecules come together and form tiny crystals. Those crystals can either grow more or redissolve.

I don’t see how that theory explains any of the ideas posted above.

For chemistry types, here’s a review article in dense liquid precursor ideas:

https://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/cg049977w

 

[Hans-Werner]

I think he may be talking about "Formation, chemical evolution, and solidification of the calcium carbonate dense liquid phase" but some things got mixed up.

Could be something going on in the "calcifying matrix" but not sure if it plays a role in the tank in general. In the calcifying matrix of corals acidic proteins play a major role.

 

[IntrinsicReef]

Thank you very much for transcribing that.

There are a great many problems with that “explanation” and it does not make scientific sense to accept it as a viable theory.

Dense liquid precursor theory is merely a molecular level explanation of what happens in the very earliest stages of precipitation of something. In the absence of any seed crystal surfaces to initiate more precipitation on, a bunch of molecules need to come together rapidly to make a tiny bit of solid. The theory suggests that happens when local random concentrations result in a higher than average concentration over some small area, and in the “dense” area, several molecules come together and form tiny crystals. Those crystals can either grow more or redissolve.

I don’t see how that theory explains any of the ideas posted above.

For chemistry types, here’s a review article in dense liquid precursor ideas:

https://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/cg049977w

Thank you for the layman's explanation. One other question that might have been covered. Doug warns (I have also heard fears circulating in the community) about precipitates redissolving into the aquarium during power outages or equipment failures. Let's say a pH drop during a less than 24 hours event. Is there any truth in this? It seems like precipitates would have a hard time redissolving in a solution that is 7.9 instead of 8.3 for instance, especially in a short term scenario.

 

[BeanAnimal]

If we take the whole cobbled together mess as factual, doesn't that then mean that the effectiveness of "Bolus Dosing" in context to pH and this "timed release" stability has everything to do with exposed calcified surface area AND flow in any given system? What about algae covered... coralline covered, biofilm covered, etc? Those surfaces would appear to not fall into the magic zone.

I am sorry, but the crap just gets deeper and deeper and you would think at some point too deep... but alas they just invent more science and publish another video the next week. Layers and layers of crap.

 

[IntrinsicReef]

Thank you for sharing, I had to look up DLP and kinetic constraint of carbon dioxide. I used chatGPT so here it is:
DLP:

kinetic constraint of carbon dioxide:

Not sure if chatGPT is correct but based on what it states I am not understanding the relation of these concepts to BOLUS…
Maybe it is too early in the morning…

Doug does go off in part of the interview about how Kalkwasser and Sodium carbonate sequester all of the the CO2 and there is not enough for coral photosynthesis. I have heard Craig Bingman mention this effect of Kalk in his talks on Kalkwasser chemistry, but it seems to be very extreme examples, and not likely to happen in an aerated box of water with animals living in it.

 

[IntrinsicReef]

If we take the whole cobbled together mess as factual, doesn't that then mean that the effectiveness of "Bolus Dosing" in context to pH and this "timed release" stability has everything to do with exposed calcified surface area AND flow in any given system? What about algae covered... coralline covered, biofilm covered, etc? Those surfaces would appear to not fall into the magic zone.

I am sorry, but the crap just gets deeper and deeper and you would think at some point too deep... but alas they just invent more science and publish another video the next week. Layers and layers of crap.

Yes, the contradictions were rife. In one sentence the biofilm on the rocks were good and slough off and feed the coral. The next sentence was to have very clean rocks to facilitate their magic crystals. Very little quantifying the important parameters and objectives. It was like "Come to me and let me judge your tank and tell you what to do." I think that is what really rubs me the wrong way about Doug. Demonizing other methods and creating a cult-like mentality instead of having a discussion of the benefits and drawbacks of different approaches.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I think he may be talking about "Formation, chemical evolution, and solidification of the calcium carbonate dense liquid phase" but some things got mixed up.

Could be something going on in the "calcifying matrix" but not sure if it plays a role in the tank in general. In the calcifying matrix of corals acidic proteins play a major role.

Thanks for posting that. yes, that is the more specific version of the theory applied to calcium carbonate. I see no explanation of the FM claims in it, but let's explore some of the issues.

1. It is claimed that the settled material is why alk is not detected immediately upon dosing. But it is also claimed the particles are so small they cannot be seen. Particles so small they cannot be seen will take a very lengthy period to settle out.

This is easily proven by any reefer. Add a high pH solution to seawater and one gets a cloudy precipitate immediately (likely mostly magnesium hydroxide, initially). These solids do not rapidly drop to the bottom, despite being much larger than the invisible particles of this theory. They flow along with any current, which is always present in any normal reef tank. They may eventually settle out somewhere in the system, if they do not redissolve first, but not before being mixed around.

That's one serious flaw with this hypothesis. If the particles are in the water sample taken for alkalinity analysis (because they are so small that they did not settle out first), then they WILL be detected in a normal alk titration because calcium carbonate (or bicarbonate, not sure what solid they are hypothesizing) dissolves under the acidic conditions of an alk titration.

Thus, the alk will not be hidden until the particles settle out, and settling of invisibly small particles in so slow that this cannot happen fast enough to not be detected.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

From the video, it claimed:
Doug does go off in part of the interview about how Kalkwasser and Sodium carbonate sequester all of the the CO2 and there is not enough for coral photosynthesis. I have heard Craig Bingman mention this in his talks on Kalkwasser chemistry, but it seems to be very extreme examples, and not likely to happen in an aerated box of water with animals living in it.

Many organisms are known to get CO2 from bicarbonate in seawater, not from CO2 itself.

https://reefkeeping.com/issues/2006-10/rhf/index.php

Of course, many reefers also know that corals grow faster at higher pH. The attainment of CO2 at higher pH (at least as attained in reef tanks) do not seem any sort of limitation.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

From the video, it claimed:
Okay, and there's a very special piece of chemistry which is um it was known as a kinetic constraint of um of carbon dioxide. So basically, the car (audio lags momentarily) this chemistry but effectively it means that it takes these crystals, it takes from these little bicarbonate crystals in preference to bringing in carbon dioxide from the atmosphere. And that's why the pH is maintained with the bolus system.

2. The magic pH effect is an assertion without any sort of attempt at an explanation. Not sure what the "it" is here that takes the crystals, or whether what is being "taken" is alk or CO2, but the air/water interface of water that is being aerated only "knows" what the pH and CO2 level and alkalinity is locally. It cannot know that there are some hypothesized crystals elsewhere in the system. The interface will attain its local equilibrium no matter what else is present elsewhere. Thus, any introduction or removal of CO2 will happen as it otherwise would in the absence of these crystals.

Presumably the claim is that CO2 is not introduced at the air water interface, and pH is thus maintained.

Why is it not introduced?

I would turn this argument on its head and claim that the lower alkalinity (from some being hidden) at the same CO2 level will result in lower pH by the standard equation relating alk, pH, and CO2. I discuss this standard relationship in great detail here:

Chemistry And The Aquarium: The Relationship Between Alkalinity And pH

Randy answers many questions in this complex relationship.

reefs.com

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

From the video, it claimed:
But actually inadvertently we were doing this 30 years ago and we were creating these amazingly stable systems by putting scoops of bicarb into the system not knowing at all what was happening with the chemistry. Yeah but now because we've got all these tools we can see the effect of what it does.

Yes, folks have been bolus dosing bicarbonate for decades.

Do they seriously believe that the hidden alk went unnoticed for 30 years? That no one tried to measure the alk after dosing?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

From the video, it claimed:
Yeah but now because we've got all these tools we can see the effect of what it does. So the bicarbonate what it does is it creates like a micro Crystal. You can't see it, but it's adhering to a surface and that surface has to be relatively clear of that bacteria that we were talking about, that biofilm.

Why does it need to be free of bacteria? Does it not redissolve if there are bacteria everywhere?

Does it just keep accumulating if there are no bare surfaces? Sounds like a risky situation to be avoided. lol