Breaker tripping

[jonelder68]

It’s in the garage. Not outside.

Very old system.

You close to the ocean? Ya it’s time for a new panel.

 

[Miami Reef]

Yes. We live on the water.

 

[Reefering1]

A

Here are the photos he took of our panels

Can you tell me what I should ask them to do? I’m a little bit confused. Anyway, the supervisor is coming tomorrow and we will discuss exactly what needs to be done. The more info I have to tell them what to do, the better.

Have them verify no voltage on the ground. I've seen grounds used as nuetral, junctioned in a light switch box cause similar issues. That panel is a mess but doesn't look that bad for a older fl house. The posts look good/ clean and if it's just 2 circuits, replacing the panel will likely not fix the problem.( if it was the panel, they can simply move the breaker to that empty space). If each circuit shuts off(shows 0vac), with its respective breaker, the issue is almost certainly a nuetral to ground issue. Just make sure he checks... if he sees 109v on a ground, it is very likely someone connected nuetral to ground in a box somewhere. Very possibly in a room next to an addition.

 

[Miami Reef]

A

Have them verify no voltage on the ground. I've seen grounds used as nuetral, junctioned in a light switch box cause similar issues. That panel is a mess but doesn't look that bad for an older fl house. The posts look good/ clean and if it's just 2 circuits, replacing the panel will likely not fix the problem.( if it was the panel, they can simply move the breaker to that empty space). If each circuit shuts off(shows 0vac), with its respective breaker, the issue is almost certainly a nuetral to ground issue. Just make sure he checks... if he sees 109v on a ground, it is very likely someone connected nuetral to ground in a box somewhere. Very possibly in a room next to an addition.

Thanks! I just screenshot your post and I’ll show it to the supervisor tomorrow. I really appreciate it.

I don’t know much about electrical stuff, so it really helps having experienced people guide me the right way.

 

[BeanAnimal]

You panel is bit crusty and not the neatest job, but not terrible. Hard to tell what is actually oxidized sometimes without actually getting into it though.

I don't commonly see double (parallel) feeders. I suppose they did it because the smaller gauge wire is easier to pull. But most lugs are not rated for double termination

From NEC:
For a 200A service, using parallel 100A conductors (in compliance with NEC 310.10(G)) is permitted if all the following are true:

1. Conductors are the same length, material, size, and insulation type.
2. They terminate in lugs rated for parallel use or double conductors.
3. Neutral and ground conductors are also paralleled in the same manner.

Not something that I would worry about one way or the other, I just find it odd, but maybe it is common in that area.

So aside from a bit of wire mess, it is hard to tell what is actually bad, but a new panel is cheap. It is the labor that is going to be expensive, as are AFCI and GFCI breakers. But you will be safer in the long run.


My panel... I put it in ~20 years ago. Still fairy neat, all things considered. There is a 80a sub nearby as well (kitchen) and a 100A in the shed.. and yes I have that many circuits

 

[Miami Reef]

You panel is bit crusty and not the neatest job, but not terrible. Hard to tell what is actually oxidized sometimes without actually getting into it though.

I don't commonly see double (parallel) feeders. I suppose they did it because the smaller gauge wire is easier to pull. But most lugs are not rated for double termination

From NEC:
For a 200A service, using parallel 100A conductors (in compliance with NEC 310.10(G)) is permitted if all the following are true:

1. Conductors are the same length, material, size, and insulation type.
2. They terminate in lugs rated for parallel use or double conductors.
3. Neutral and ground conductors are also paralleled in the same manner.

Not something that I would worry about one way or the other, I just find it odd, but maybe it is common in that area.

So aside from a bit of wire mess, it is hard to tell what is actually bad, but a new panel is cheap. It is the labor that is going to be expensive, as are AFCI and GFCI breakers. But you will be safer in the long run.


My panel... I put it in ~20 years ago. Still fairy neat, all things considered. There is a 80a sub nearby as well (kitchen) and a 100A in the shed.. and yes I have that many circuits

Wow. Super neat setup. I’ll show your post as well to them. I appreciate it very much!

 

[W31Olds]

I see an awful lot of red wire in that panel. Do you have a transfer switch? And that 50 Amp breaker looks scary for that wire size. You need to get a couple of bids on a new panel ASAP. Also, why do you think you need 2 dedicated circuits? I would think a single 20 amp would be fine unless you have a giant chiller.

 

[BeanAnimal]

A

Have them verify no voltage on the ground. I've seen grounds used as nuetral, junctioned in a light switch box cause similar issues. That panel is a mess but doesn't look that bad for a older fl house. The posts look good/ clean and if it's just 2 circuits, replacing the panel will likely not fix the problem.( if it was the panel, they can simply move the breaker to that empty space). If each circuit shuts off(shows 0vac), with its respective breaker, the issue is almost certainly a nuetral to ground issue. Just make sure he checks... if he sees 109v on a ground, it is very likely someone connected nuetral to ground in a box somewhere. Very possibly in a room next to an addition.

Prior to late 90's --- many 220V appliances used leg to ground to run the 120V panel lights... YEP they got away with using the ECG as neutral because back then most 220V appliances were only fed L1, L2 and ECG, as no neutral was needed.

 

[Reefering1]

Prior to late 90's --- many 220V appliances used leg to ground to run the 120V panel lights... YEP they got away with using the ECG as neutral because back then most 220V appliances were only fed L1, L2 and ECG, as no neutral was needed.

Right, and it becomes a problem if, for example, they need another circuit for a added on room(or whatever reason); and only have a 14/2 romex to that corner of the house. Then use the black and white as seperate hots and the ground as nuetral(like 220v). If they're really stupid, both breakers on the same leg of panel. If any of this happened, the issue will persist after replacing the panel. My concern is that if it's old enough, permitting a new panel will require a complete re wire. Of coarse, if it's all new, it will work; but is that what's actually required(?).

 

[BeanAnimal]

Wow. Super neat setup. I’ll show your post as well to them. I appreciate it very much!i

It’s really not that neat. That is 20 years of wires being pulled in and out. Most of my panels are a lot cleaner.

That box actually wouldn’t pass inspection in some jurisdictions where nitwit AHJs and inspectors misinterpret certain NEC language in 200.4 and 200.10 requiring all branch circuit conductors to be tied and labeled inside of an enclosure... unless NFPA revised the language in newer books. It was a huge mess in some areas.

 

[KStatefan]

I think most areas require it even if they’re still enforcing older NEC editions. AFCI has been in the code since around 2008 and has expanded with nearly every revision since.

GFCI requirements are pre 2000 for sure and expanded significantly since then, to almost universal by maybe 2018. I would bet most AHJs in Florida are already enforcing at least 2020, if not 2023.

Before anyone asks...

Yes, I read the NEC to keep up to date with each code revision and what is new, and yes, I read the NFPA ratification documents and the arguments for and against each revision. I actually find the justifications and debates oddly fascinating. Sadly, most of that technical back and forth is now paywalled.

I have not kept up with codes (2008 newest on my shelf) did not know that it was required to have GFCI breakers now. In my opinion I would much rather have my four GFCI receptacles on my 20 amp circuit than have one GFCI breaker.

 

[BeanAnimal]

Agreed. Notice the absence of such breakers in my panel.

 

[Miami Reef]

Do you think this new electrician company will need to follow the new codes?

Do you think I’d need to change the breakers to GFCI?

Like who’s enforcing the new codes? Ps the company said they have a 3 year warranty which sounds good.

 

[KStatefan]

It’s really not that neat. That is 20 years of wires being pulled in and out. Most of my panels are a lot cleaner.

It is pretty neat for having changes over the years. I really had trouble keeping my neat when I added my garage 50 amp sub and Geothermeal 100 amp sub and it is not has neat as yours.

 

[robanister]

Common problem is moisture buildup or rain enters box. I bet your tank is on the bottom breakers. If you open your panel you will probably see water. This occurs when the wire is no longer sealed from outside to inside .

 

[BeanAnimal]

It is pretty neat for having changes over the years. I really had trouble keeping my neat when I added my garage 50 amp sub and Geothermeal 100 amp sub and it is not has neat as yours.

It honesty bothers the snot out of me.

When I put the panel in I was not required to pull a permit. I was doing my own work but decided to have an inspector out anyway. I wanted a sticker on the panel in case we sold the house and for insurance reasons. (still here 25 years or later)....

Anyway. The home had a 1950s fuse panel and 6 circuits, AC, Range, Lights, upstairs, downstairs, kitchen.
So I rewired the entire home. A breaker for everything.

Ohh -- back to the story. So the box is super squared away, perfect. The inspector shows up form a company local company, and I am warned in advance from a friend that the guy coming is an absolute PITA stickler and often nitpicks and fails inspections for silly things, or makes contractors remove all faceplates and devices to inspect termination, etc. He shows up and looks at the panel and says "who wired this?" I said "Me". He said "You're an electrician?" I said "No, but..." He cut me off and said "Do you know the NEC?" I said yes. He asked me two random questions, one about GFCIs and where they were required and another about bonding requirements. I answered and he then says something to the effect of "This is the nicest work I have ever seen, I don't need to see anything else. I wish my every day was like this instead of having to deal with morons". And with that, he pasted the sticker on the box and left.

 

[BeanAnimal]

Common problem is moisture buildup or rain enters box. I bet your tank is on the bottom breakers. If you open your panel you will probably see water. This occurs when the wire is no longer sealed from outside to inside .

My brothers service entrance cable was split on the back side. I have never seen so much water run through a panel in heavy rain. It was like a waterfall. I didn't believe him when he tried to explain it to me. It took two or three rains to figure out what the heck was going on. Oddly, never tripped a breaker, but sure was one of those "wow, that is scary" things that you don't see often.

 

[W31Olds]

Miami, a licensed Electrician with have to follow NEC and any local codes. Do you have a Generator Transfer Switch? That could be adding to your issue. You could probably have them clean up the panel, however the cost might be a wash as I would be worried that some of the Breakers are corroded internally. If they do decide to reuse some the breakers they should be tested and that 50 Amp Breaker does not look correct.

 

[Paul B]

He says the breaker panel needs to be changed,

I can't see it from here, so Maybe.

What does the caution sign mean on the apex?

It means the voltage is a little to low for that device. Your electrician needs to check the input voltage and it may vary through the day. If it gets lower than 108 volts, you need to call the power company and they will put a timed meter on your line. For free.

He said he can’t just create a new outlet because it will be too much power drawn out.

Basically, the breaker panel had 3 different wiring in one switch (I’m totally butchering the explanation, he’s sending the full report soon) This makes no sense to me.

All the GFCI below the tank are interconnected which makes them basically wired into each other = bad job

Yes, you can't wire GFCIs together.

After my Inspection I notice that the circuits are not independent and they only griping went the 2 circuits are working, the circuits have GFCI concrete serial and these is part of the problem too.

The 2 circuits are in deferents lines and these generate the tripping because in some point of the wiring the 2 lines touch each other.

I replace one circuit and now the 2 circuits are in the same line and know they don’t trip but they have voltage problems.


Part of the problem is the breakers are to old and lose and the final solution is run 2 new circuits because the outlets are Behind the tank piping and not accessible.

Does this electrician have English as his first language? I am having a hard time trying to figure out what he is saying.

Here are the photos he took of our panels

Sloppy, and I would have fired the guy if he worked for me, but it is serviceable and can be repaired.

Can you tell me what I should ask them to do?

I would remove those feeders (large wires), clean the cable ends and the terminals and put "penetrox" on them before re assembly. It's just some gray stuff that prevents corrosion. I use it on everything including my car terminals and used it extensively on my job as a commercial, industrial construction electrician in Manhattan.

The "bars" that the breakers are plugged into in the center of the panel, I'm sure are also corroded and need to be cleaned, unless of course he will be changing the panel and from here I can't tell how corroded it is.

I also live on the water and corrosion is a big problem so penetrox should be used. Sometimes it is called
"Anti Ox". It is not normally needed for copper cables, but near the water it is a big help. I use it on everything.

I don't commonly see double (parallel) feeders. I suppose they did it because the smaller gauge wire is easier to pull. But most lugs are not rated for double termination

It is weird to see parallel feeders in a house but it will work fine. I don't know the codes in Miami.

If your input voltage is 109 volts, that is fine, but just barely. Most homes only get 108 volts, but anything from 108 to 120 should be fine. You will pay a little more for electric the lower your voltage is.

 

[BeanAnimal]

Yes, you can't wire GFCIs together.

Certainly not load side from one to line side of another unless you want to go crazy with nuisance trips.

But we can parallel them with no problems

I actually home runned (sp?) many of my basement and kitchen receptacles to JBs just so that they could have individual GFCis on them. Nothing is more annoying than some random NON GFCI recetapcle tripping a GFCI and having to remember where the heck it is. My parents house (1978) has a bathroom GFCI that feeds the front porch utility receptacle... Because, you know... in 1978 breakers were $2 each. I have no idea what a 1878 GFI cost.

I also live on the water and corrosion is a big problem so penetrox should be used. Sometimes it is called
"Anti Ox". It is not normally needed for copper cables, but near the water it is a big help. I use it on everything.

What is this magic penetrox you use in NY and why have I never been given a tube?

Here a few miles west we use NOALOX but I am now reading that it is inferior to your fancy NY brand. Would say, using it to polish a copper fish, prevent it from taking on a time worn patina?