BRS acquires Marine Depot? WOW!

[Smoke-Town]

That was a lot of reading to catch up on. Shocked to see so much hatred for BRS. I think Ryan and randy have done a massive service to the community with their test tanks and other info videos. They save lots of people money but doing all these tests even if there is a bit of product bias...cough...Neptune...cough.

comparing brs to Amazon is just ridiculous. and boycotting brs to shop at amazon doesn’t even merit a response. brs is far from a monopoly and in most markets we have to worry more about trusts than monopolies anyway, as monopolies are easier to see and call out.

I think brs is awesome. I enjoy their videos and their pricing and shipping has never seemed overpriced to me and I’m far from rich. I do think they give unfair assessments of particular brands from time to time, but so does every reefer here who has a single bad experience with a company or product. (If I see one more reference to jaebao pumps burning your house down...). I also think they stock some things that don’t match the good better best ideology and ignore products that do fit well in there. But no one Is perfect and everyone has opinions.

give them credit for what they’re doing to expand the knowledge of the hobby as well as push for better product. They truly do deserve it even if you prefer other companies. I look forward to their videos for news, comparisons and ideas and tips i may have missed over the years drowned out by all the nonsense in the forums.


i Do wish Ryan and randy did their own videos as they just step on each other and regurgitate the same stuff when together... randy should do investigate videos by himself and Ryan should do the longer discussions in a monologue form. Don’t need both of them together. same With tanks... do your own and show us and explain it alone... not together. My gf and I have our own tanks for this reason so we can do it our way and still occasionally step on each other. They do eachother a disservice when together and I think both of their reputations would improve if they did more solo content. *End off topic video rant.

Congrats and good luck brs. No one likes when big money gets involved with the things we love and the hobby is right to be cautious and skeptical of the influence Bertram will bring... we all hope you remain in control of your vision Ryan.

 

[Sleepydoc]

You make your reputation on the way up, and your money on the way down. ...They bought into BRS and then they bought a major competitor and took away one of those "reputations". Instant market share, and more is coming.

A philosophy? Riiight, a private equity firm just stepped in and gained market share by erasing a competitor, they didn't let the market (customers) decide ...Their first move wasn't to gain market share by making BRS better, it was to take away the competition.

You also have no clue what leverage was used in the sale if there was any at all because it's all kept private.

BRS would need to prove they can run what they have now before buying anything else.

Yes, MD is clearly shutting down because they were just purchased, you clearly know that.

I don't care about how long MD's owner has been trying to sell, it's irrelevant.
MD will be no more, and BRS had to partner with a PE firm to make it happen.
That PE firm isn't going to stop here, it even says that on their website, incase you don't understand what a PE firm is and what they do.

They're going to want more revenue, more transactions, and the value of each transaction will have to go up. That's the order value per transaction, and the value as a percentage to them. That would be customer money, which means less value for the customer.

There is only one version, it's the truth and BRS/Bertram Capital has purchased a market competitor and eliminated them. I'm sorry I hurt your feelings so bad that you're now completely inventing a "my version" to try and twist things.


Prices are controlled by competition, we now have one less competitor in the market.
This means reduced value for me, the consumer.

There are zero assumptions or possibilities that you have invented here that have any impact on what happens to me, the consumer. I happen to be the #1 entity that I care about, not a brand, not a business figure, and not the latest trend. I spend my money when I shop, and I want the most value possible.

This isn't about the little guy vs the big guy, or some other narrative that you're trying to spin. It's about me the consumer.

Your version of the events is a private equity firm bought a [controlling] stake in BRS and they are now moving to [ruthlessly] acquire and eliminate all the competition,

My feelings aren't hurt, I'm just posting a counterargument to the somewhat misleading, absolutist and hyperbolic statements being made. I just re-read your posts, and I stand by my summary.

By your own admission, you don't know any details yet you have made assumptions that are contrary to the available evidence. No one disputes that MD is gone. The circumstances around their demise, BRS' motivations and BRS' plans for the future are unknown open to debate. All of your posts have the same tone - the private equity BORG has started assimilating, resistance is futile.

As long as we're projecting assumptions, say BRS decided to take over MD on their own, without a PE firm, would that have been better? Had they done so, they may have had to secure more expensive funding and/or been left in a worse financial condition, making them raise prices. How about if MD had simply folded...then BRS would have been in an even better position to raise their prices.

As far as prices go - we agree. Less competition is generally bad for the consumer. (Unless, as Ryan said, that competition is between the retailers and the manufacturers, in which case bigger may actually be better, but I'm not counting on that.) Either way, from what I've seen the market was deciding - Marine Depot was on its way out, whether BRS got involved or not, so there would have been fewer choices, regardless. As @Brew12 said, MAP pricing and Amazon already provide plenty of influence over pricing. I'm not convinced we will see much difference. Whatever the case, time will tell.

 

[Sleepydoc]

So I’ve let this thread run out for a while to read a lot of comments. It’s good to know that I’m in the concerned majority. Just a few thoughts to share.

• It doesn’t really matter how MD got acquired by BRS. Fact is we’re now left with a big online retailer with less competition. I’ll guess that the strengths of MD won’t make it to BRS. I’m also expecting to see less variety of items in the combined offering.
• My guess is that this PE firm is going to try and roll up several online stores and then sell the whole thing in 7-9 years to a Petco or something. Remember, PE firms invest in companies only to sell them later. That‘s how they make money.
• We will probably see the familiar faces around for a couple of years while they are under contract to maximize how much they make from the sale, and then “poof” gone

So my game plan.

• Support LA and other online companies.
• Price with Amazon first, BRS second. So if someone starts an Amazon storefront, I’m in
• I am going to spend more time finding LFS for my dry goods.

Just my thoughts.

@Sleepydoc what did I say to disparage BRS for its involvement with a PE firm?

Perhaps disparage was too strong of a characteristic - my apologies.

In your original post, you talk about BRS being a 'big online retailer' that won't have any of the strengths of MD and will proceed to roll up other retailers until it merges with PetCo. You then proceeded to say you are going to preferentially shop on Amazon, the ultimate in big online retailers. Doesn't that seem a bit hypocritical?

I'm not saying your fears won't come true. I truly hope they don't, but I'm also not going to act like they are true until I have evidence of such.

Like I've said - it's a bit ironic that we all 'support the little guy,' but when the little guy is successful and grows he suddenly becomes the 'evil big guy' and people start actively working against him.

I'm not saying your predictions are false, just that they are predictions based on assumptions that may or may not be true. What will happen remains to be seen, but BRS has done a lot for the hobby and for the reefing community and I hope they continue to do so. I'll see what happens and make my decisions accordingly.

 

[rtparty]

Perhaps disparage was too strong of a characteristic - my apologies.

In your original post, you talk about BRS being a 'big online retailer' that won't have any of the strengths of MD and will proceed to roll up other retailers until it merges with PetCo. You then proceeded to say you are going to preferentially shop on Amazon, the ultimate in big online retailers. Doesn't that seem a bit hypocritical?

I'm not saying your fears won't come true. I truly hope they don't, but I'm also not going to act like they are true until I have evidence of such.

Like I've said - it's a bit ironic that we all 'support the little guy,' but when the little guy is successful and grows he suddenly becomes the 'evil big guy' and people start actively working against him.

I'm not saying your predictions are false, just that they are predictions based on assumptions that may or may not be true. What will happen remains to be seen, but BRS has done a lot for the hobby and for the reefing community and I hope they continue to do so. I'll see what happens and make my decisions accordingly.

Spot on.

What happens if the collective whole decides to leave the "big bad guy" to support the "small good guy"? Doesnt't the small guy become the new big guy? So do we all have to bounce again to whoever the new little guy is? Is this just some sick joke of lather, rinse, repeat?

I am a small business owner myself. I love supporting the smaller guys WHEN they provide what I need. I shop Amazon a lot for non-reefing items because it is super convenient and often times my local stores don't have what I need. I will continue shopping BRS at every chance becasue my LFS don't carry anything worth going in for. If they want my business, earn it.

 

[fish farmer]

Spot on.

What happens if the collective whole decides to leave the "big bad guy" to support the "small good guy"? Doesnt't the small guy become the new big guy? So do we all have to bounce again to whoever the new little guy is? Is this just some sick joke of lather, rinse, repeat?

I am a small business owner myself. I love supporting the smaller guys WHEN they provide what I need. I shop Amazon a lot for non-reefing items because it is super convenient and often times my local stores don't have what I need. I will continue shopping BRS at every chance becasue my LFS don't carry anything worth going in for. If they want my business, earn it.

I went online and started to actually see what retailer x sold vs retailer y to see how this would affect my shopping.

I noticed some things that I use I can get directly from the source...no middleman....Hanna checkers I can buy from Hanna....Danner mag drive pumps....direct from Danner.

 

[LPS Bum]

I pointed it out earlier in this thread, but the MD refill kit, even at 15% off, was over $7 more expensive than the regular price BRS refill kit.
The advantage to the MD refill kit is that it came with an already filled ion exchange cartridge. Personally, I'd rather save the money and reduce plastic waste by refilling it myself.

The other advantage (if Marine Depot's claims are to be believed) is that the carbon block is supposed to last longer than the BRS version. But who knows...

 

[LPS Bum]

Has anyone else stopped to think about the bigger issue that hasn’t been addressed - the fact that Marine Depot, a good sized company with a good customer base was not able to make it financially?

In the past few years we’ve seen the demise of Vertex and Marine Depot, and Drs Foster & Smith and Live Aquaria we’re bought out by Petco. To me this is more concerning for the hobby than simply BRS buying MD.

I'm not happy about this either, but I'm not sure this was about Marine Depot not being able to "make it" financially. Marine Depot approached BRS several times about selling, and with the cash infusion BRS was finally in a position to take advantage of it.

This sort of thing happens all the time in America. You start a company, grow it, and eventually cash out and sell to a (bigger) competitor. Personally I think this will harm the industry and the average reef hobbyist, because competition drives innovation and lower prices, but this likely wasn't due to insolvency on the part of MD. It's just the way start ups work.

 

[reefiniteasy]

Wait till BRS announces the acquisition of Neptune. This thread will really explode. Hahahaha

 

[desagon]

Wait till BRS announces the acquisition of Neptune. This thread will really explode. Hahahaha

Haha, Neptune, WWC, and/or Ecotech. They do seem to favor those companies

 

[Smoke-Town]

competition does drive innovation and lower prices... and while brs does have more and more of their own products, they are more like the shopping mall who puts all the products and competitors under one roof... they don't dictate the prices of the products. They have a standard mark up percentage like any store that sells anything from car parts to alcohol.

Ecotech and Neptune products are going to stay the same sky high prices because they have very little competition. Wait until another company comes up with a reliable power head with a similar cord solution to ecotech and watch all their pumps drop in price by 50 percent. Same issue for Neptune... big prices for dated tech... but no one else is doing it to such a refined level and they'll command that huge price tag until the little guys fine tune their controllers.

I'd love to see brs work on those solutions if they get big enough for R&D department. Unfortunately they are probably too buddy buddy with those 2 companies to make those plays... but I bet the PE firm couldn't care less about that friendship so maybe there is a plus side to them being involved after all

 

[rtparty]

competition does drive innovation and lower prices... and while brs does have more and more of their own products, they are more like the shopping mall who puts all the products and competitors under one roof... they don't dictate the prices of the products. They have a standard mark up percentage like any store that sells anything from car parts to alcohol.

Ecotech and Neptune products are going to stay the same sky high prices because they have very little competition. Wait until another company comes up with a reliable power head with a similar cord solution to ecotech and watch all their pumps drop in price by 50 percent. Same issue for Neptune... big prices for dated tech... but no one else is doing it to such a refined level and they'll command that huge price tag until the little guys fine tune their controllers.

I'd love to see brs work on those solutions if they get big enough for R&D department. Unfortunately they are probably too buddy buddy with those 2 companies to make those plays... but I bet the PE firm couldn't care less about that friendship so maybe there is a plus side to them being involved after all

We won't see another pump like the Vortech for a very long time and if we do, prices won't go down. China would have already created the knock off if they could do it for cheaper. They don't care about patent laws.

Neptune is already sweating the Hydros and has from day one. After owning both, Neptune should be worried.

 

[Jon Warner]

Is this worse than just having MD fold and close up shop? By all indications, that was what the only other option was.

Actually, most prices in this hobby have MAP pricing. For the stuff that doesn't have MAP pricing, you can get most of it on Amazon so there is plenty of competition.


What actually happens remains to be seen, but I have hope this could be good for the consumer. Because this hobby is so dominated by MAP pricing we, the consumer, rarely get a price break. I am hoping BRS becomes large and dominant enough to force the major equipment players to reduce their MAP pricing and offer larger discounts during traditional sales. It could be good for BRS and for us consumers.
Will it play out that way? Who knows... BRS may not be large enough to make that happen even with MD out of the picture.

Just a word about MAP.

It exists for a reason. Let me explain. ABC Manufacturing Company makes a widget and sells it to a LFS for $10. LFS needs to mark up it's dry goods 100% to stay alive. So they sell the widget for $20.

Large online companies operate more like a traditional retailer, looking for 30%-ish margins. So they'd buy the widget and sell it for $13-14

Oh and there's more! The online retailer doesn't pay $10 like the LFS does... they buy in volume so they get it for $8.

MAP allows the LFS to survive. But not just LFS... MAP pricing ensures that a strong e-tailer doesn't sell product at a 1% margin just to gain market share or put others out of business.

 

[Jon Warner]

That was a lot of reading to catch up on. Shocked to see so much hatred for BRS. I think Ryan and randy have done a massive service to the community with their test tanks and other info videos. They save lots of people money but doing all these tests even if there is a bit of product bias...cough...Neptune...cough.

comparing brs to Amazon is just ridiculous. and boycotting brs to shop at amazon doesn’t even merit a response. brs is far from a monopoly and in most markets we have to worry more about trusts than monopolies anyway, as monopolies are easier to see and call out.

I think brs is awesome. I enjoy their videos and their pricing and shipping has never seemed overpriced to me and I’m far from rich. I do think they give unfair assessments of particular brands from time to time, but so does every reefer here who has a single bad experience with a company or product. (If I see one more reference to jaebao pumps burning your house down...). I also think they stock some things that don’t match the good better best ideology and ignore products that do fit well in there. But no one Is perfect and everyone has opinions.

give them credit for what they’re doing to expand the knowledge of the hobby as well as push for better product. They truly do deserve it even if you prefer other companies. I look forward to their videos for news, comparisons and ideas and tips i may have missed over the years drowned out by all the nonsense in the forums.


i Do wish Ryan and randy did their own videos as they just step on each other and regurgitate the same stuff when together... randy should do investigate videos by himself and Ryan should do the longer discussions in a monologue form. Don’t need both of them together. same With tanks... do your own and show us and explain it alone... not together. My gf and I have our own tanks for this reason so we can do it our way and still occasionally step on each other. They do eachother a disservice when together and I think both of their reputations would improve if they did more solo content. *End off topic video rant.

Congrats and good luck brs. No one likes when big money gets involved with the things we love and the hobby is right to be cautious and skeptical of the influence Bertram will bring... we all hope you remain in control of your vision Ryan.

40+ years in the hobby...

30 years in the business and BRS has done MORE for the average hobbyist than any other company I can think of while still growing into the largest company in the hobby.

They've educated the public and are partially responsible for making the home reef tank easier to run than ever.

 

[TnFishwater98]

I don’t like monopolies like I assume most of you. I haven’t researched the topic so I’m just expressing my immediate thoughts. Maybe Marine Depot was not doing so well financially because of bad business practices or other business related factors and BRS was running the ship better. In no way does this stop another competitor company to rise to the “2nd” spot and try and run a better ship than BRS. Does it make it tougher? Yes, but I could see if this was the case why both companies made the deal.

 

[NashobaTek]

Well that sucks, Marine depot is the only place I buy from. Don't really like brs, so guess I'll be looking for a new place to buy from.

 

[FishyFishFish]

Just a word about MAP.

It exists for a reason. Let me explain. ABC Manufacturing Company makes a widget and sells it to a LFS for $10. LFS needs to mark up it's dry goods 100% to stay alive. So they sell the widget for $20.

Large online companies operate more like a traditional retailer, looking for 30%-ish margins. So they'd buy the widget and sell it for $13-14

Oh and there's more! The online retailer doesn't pay $10 like the LFS does... they buy in volume so they get it for $8.

MAP allows the LFS to survive. But not just LFS... MAP pricing ensures that a strong e-tailer doesn't sell product at a 1% margin just to gain market share or put others out of business.

That might be a by-product of MAP but that isn’t the reason for it.

The MAP is set by the manufacturer and is there to protect them (and not the LFS). It effectively enables them to artificially hold the price high and disrupt market forces from influencing the retail price.

 

[Anchor]

Just a curiousity question.. For those that dont like BRS. can you give your reasons why? I have shopped at both and other than a few items... Did not see much of a difference for pricing, methodology, advertising (in fact MD hit me up far more than BRS ever did)... and except for colors of the website.. nothing seemed different.. So why do people not like BRS?

 

[mike550]

Just a curiousity question.. For those that dont like BRS. can you give your reasons why? I have shopped at both and other than a few items... Did not see much of a difference for pricing, methodology, advertising (in fact MD hit me up far more than BRS ever did)... and except for colors of the website.. nothing seemed different.. So why do people not like BRS?

I’m a supporter of BRS but when you acquire a competitor it always makes me nervous as the customer. Not only were there price differences between MD and BRS but also what items they carried. Will BRS add items to their inventory or will we see fewer choices as compared to when MD and BRS stood alone?

 

[rtparty]

Just a curiousity question.. For those that dont like BRS. can you give your reasons why? I have shopped at both and other than a few items... Did not see much of a difference for pricing, methodology, advertising (in fact MD hit me up far more than BRS ever did)... and except for colors of the website.. nothing seemed different.. So why do people not like BRS?

The truth is pricing wasn't and couldn't be much different for the vast majority of items. Ecotech, Neptune, ATI, GHL, Hydros (most of CoralVue's items), Reef Brite, Tunze, and the list goes on and on and on are all MAP items. Pricing couldn't be different. BRS RODI kits are cheaper even after the 15% off. There might have been items here and there where MD found a cheaper alternative but when comparing apples to apples, pricing was the same. The vendors make sure of this with MAP.

 

[rtparty]

I’m a supporter of BRS but when you acquire a competitor it always makes me nervous as the customer. Not only were there price differences between MD and BRS but also what items they carried. Will BRS add items to their inventory or will we see fewer choices as compared to when MD and BRS stood alone?

BRS will take on the best sellers from MD. No idea how many but Ryan mentioned this in the live. BRS was looking carefully at the top sellers.

Going through MD's liquidation sale and I can see why a lot of those items won't be carried over.