BRS Soda Ash Precipitation

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mich2599

mich2599

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I use their pharma grade which takes 2 1/3 cups of soda ash to a gallon of water. Are you using the same stuff? I've never had an issue with baked baking soda or the BRS version.
This is it

15A45352-D1FF-4E63-9E3F-CE17E4BB0B74.png
 
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mich2599

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If you look really close are you sure it’s fully dissolved? I have trouble getting mine to fully dissolve. Hour or two of warm water bath and shaking until mine looks clear and no flakes.

Yeah fully dissolved. Was mixed and left over night before the first time i used it. Solution was mixed back in August.
 

Flatlandreefer

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Any update on this? I have a thread going looking for answers to what seems to be the same issue when I dose my BRS alk part.
 

rsumner

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I have the same issue with the BRS soda ash. I dose a 0.1mL at 10 second intervals and it still turns to flakes in a very high flow area of my sump. I’m going to try 1/4 sodium bicarbonate to 3/4 soda ash to see if that will help.
 

homer1475

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Why do you people continue to throw money away on BRS soda ash when plain old baking soda(same thing their using in their "pharma" pouch) is just so cheap and does not precipitate out. Soda ash increases the PH which can also cause it to precipitate more. Plain baking soda while not as strong(requires more to be used), does not create a PH spike when adding and will not precipitate out as easy.

FWIW, BRS based their dosing chemicals off of @Randy Holmes-Farley's DIY 2 part.
 

rsumner

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Why do you people continue to throw money away on BRS soda ash when plain old baking soda(same thing their using in their "pharma" pouch) is just so cheap and does not precipitate out. Soda ash increases the PH which can also cause it to precipitate more. Plain baking soda while not as strong(requires more to be used), does not create a PH spike when adding and will not precipitate out as easy.

FWIW, BRS based their dosing chemicals off of @Randy Holmes-Farley's DIY 2 part.

@homer1475 A few comments here:

  • commercial baking soda is sodium bicarbonate (follows Randy's DIY "Recipe #2")
  • soda ash is baked-baking soda and is sodium carbonate (follows Randy's DIY "Recipe #1")
  • many reefers, like myself, do appreciate the pH-boost that soda ash provides, however i do understand this pH spike is a part of the reason for the precipitate
I don't consider using pharma-grade products over laundry-grade products in my reef a waste of money, the same way I don't think you're cheap for doing it ;). By the time you buy food-grade baking soda, the price is similar to that of BRS's products, so it's a wash to me.

Regardless, as I mentioned last night, I'm going to blend the bicarb and soda ash to try and reach the perfect balance for my system to reduce the precipitant. I've used commercially available blended products like this in the past (an example is Seachem Reef Carbonate) and found them to work quite well. I hope to create my own recipe that has a little more carbonate ratio vs bicarb ratio so I can get a liiiiiiitle more pH boost.
 

homer1475

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Just a little information.....

While I don't knock you for using BRS products, plain old arm and hammer baking soda is $3 for a 5lb bag, that I can make several gallons(think I'm right around 5 or 6 gallons on a 5LB bag) of ALK with. On the other hand, 1gallon mix of soda ash from BRS is $7.

The price is not even close.

While the PH boost is small with soda ash, all I was saying is that sodium bicarb causes less of a PH spike and in return precipitates less.

Have you looked into Randy's new DIY which uses an acid, and precipitates much less then soda ash? While I have not looked into this, I have read a couple threads about it.
 

rsumner

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@homer1475, the the Arm and Hammer baking soda that is $3/5lb/bag is laundry-grade and not food-grade, which was my point above. Stepping up to food-grade sodium bicarbonate runs about $10/2lb/bag (that I found on Amazon) which is actually more expensive than buying a 7lb bag of BRS's pharma-grade sodium bicarbonate for $23. Economically, Arm and Hammer is definitely the cheapest option. For those reefers interested in the difference between these different grades of alkalinity additives, I suggest you watch BRS's video on the topic -- it's pretty informative.

I haven't looked at Randy's new acid-approach, but I may do that. Thanks for the pointer, @homer1475!

I do intend on updating this thread with my results from blending both bicarb and carbonate sodium products. To keep it easy, I think I'm going to start with a 50/50 mix. So, I'm going to mix 1gallon of BRS soda ash, and 1gallon of BRS sodium bicarbonate. My dosing container is 2L, so I'm going to use 1L of each. The Net result is that I will have to dose 50% more liquid volume to get the same dkH result vs just dosing with Soda Ash alone. Here are the details showing the converstion specifically for for my tank:

  • Daily dKH demand: 1.4dHK (0.5 meq/L)
  • 140g system volume
  • Standalone BRS Soda Ash Demand: 140mL/daily
  • Standalone BRS Sodium Bicarb Demand: 280ml/daily
  • 50/50 Blended BRS Soda Ash/Bicarb Demand: 210ml/daily
I'll try to post my results soon.
 

jesse1134

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I had the same problem with red sea alk. I dosed in power head wait an hour and test with no rise in alk. So I said screw it and dumped it in my overflow. Seemed to work very well almost 0 precipitation.
 

rsumner

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A quick update. Using a 50/50 ratio of BRS soda ash and sodium bicarbonate dosing at at rate of 0.1mL in 10 second intervals, I have no "snowflakes" during Alk dosing any longer. I'll adjust the dosing volumes on my Apex and I'll be done with this. Yipeeee!!!
 

PatW

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I use the BRS soda ash pharma grade. Added directly to my display produces a dense white cloud. When I hand dose, I add dilute The dose about 20 fold in RODI water. It still produces a milky cloud but the power heads quickly disperse it and it goes into solution. For auto dosing, the dosers add a drop about every second and water movement handles that.
 

Randy Holmes-Farley

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Is there a reason why when I add BRS soda ash to increase Alk it precipitates so rapidly? My Mg is at least 1350 and Ca around 460. I’ll have to retest parameters this afternoon. But nevertheless this has been going on since I first bought the 2 part pharma. I add a little bit at a time right above my power head but yet the majority still manages to precipitate. I also have some Brightwell Reef code B and that does not
precipitate. Any ideas?

sure. Any high pH alk additive will transiently precipitate magnesium hydroxide that redissolve a as it mixes in. Lower pH alk additives do not do this, if it concerns you.
 

RomaAquatics

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I just started 2 part dosing with BRS pharma pouches. The soda ash turned to snow as soon as it hits the water. I followed all the mixing instructions properly and the soda is fully dissolved. I have a dosing pump that slowly adds 4 ml of soda ash daily. It is dosed in the highest flow area of my tank. The snow gets blown around quite a bit so I know the area has enough flow. I'm not sure why it is doing this. Mg is 1460 and Ca is 440. I'm trying to keep my kh at 9. Very low demand zoa tank. I'm thinking of diluting the soda ash mixture by %50 and then just dosing double. I may be switching to baking soda after this bag of soda ash runs out. What's the deal BRS?
 

Randy Holmes-Farley

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I just started 2 part dosing with BRS pharma pouches. The soda ash turned to snow as soon as it hits the water. I followed all the mixing instructions properly and the soda is fully dissolved. I have a dosing pump that slowly adds 4 ml of soda ash daily. It is dosed in the highest flow area of my tank. The snow gets blown around quite a bit so I know the area has enough flow. I'm not sure why it is doing this. Mg is 1460 and Ca is 440. I'm trying to keep my kh at 9. Very low demand zoa tank. I'm thinking of diluting the soda ash mixture by %50 and then just dosing double. I may be switching to baking soda after this bag of soda ash runs out. What's the deal BRS?

The deal is this is normal, if you are doing it properly. It is local precipitation of magnesium hydroxide that comes with any high PH additive and it will dissolve as it mixes in. Adding more slowly to a higher turbulence area and diluting more can reduce it, if it concerns you.
 

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FWIW, I've never had luck with soda ash. IMO, people use it for the added benefit of a TEMPORARY pH increase. As soon as I switched to dosing with baking soda all my alk issues went away. Don't be afraid of the decrease in pH. It's only temporary and very slight.
 

Randy Holmes-Farley

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FWIW, I've never had luck with soda ash. IMO, people use it for the added benefit of a TEMPORARY pH increase. As soon as I switched to dosing with baking soda all my alk issues went away. Don't be afraid of the decrease in pH. It's only temporary and very slight.

True the pH effects are temporary, but since most folks dose every day, often many times a day, the overall effect is beneficial. How much pH rises depends on what you dose and how much of it.
 

homer1475

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FWIW, I've never had luck with soda ash. IMO, people use it for the added benefit of a TEMPORARY pH increase. As soon as I switched to dosing with baking soda all my alk issues went away. Don't be afraid of the decrease in pH. It's only temporary and very slight.
100% agree.
 

Randy Holmes-Farley

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100% agree.

What are you agreeing with exactly?
Bicarbonate is a fine additive, but are you claiming it is better than carbonate, and if so, what is better about it?
 

Randy Holmes-Farley

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FWIW, I've never had luck with soda ash. IMO, people use it for the added benefit of a TEMPORARY pH increase. As soon as I switched to dosing with baking soda all my alk issues went away. Don't be afraid of the decrease in pH. It's only temporary and very slight.

What alk problem went away by switching from carbonate to bicarbonate?
 

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