BRS Soda Ash Precipitation

[homer1475]

I agree that all my precip issues went away with dosing just plain baking soda as opposed to soda ash, I also have not noticed much of a PH decrease.

My PH ran at 8.5 when I was dosing soda ash, now its around 8.2 dosing bicarb. I don't have a white crust on my heaters or pumps either.

It's also easier to just pour more into RO/DI, then baking it, then adding.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I agree that all my precip issues went away with dosing just plain baking soda as opposed to soda ash, I also have not noticed much of a PH decrease.

My PH ran at 8.5 when I was dosing soda ash, now its around 8.2 dosing bicarb. I don't have a white crust on my heaters or pumps either.

It's also easier to just pour more into RO/DI, then baking it, then adding.

you describe 0.3 pH unit increase as “not much”?
If you start at pH 8.5 and drop to 8.2 by switching to bicarbonate, that seems a perfectly fine decision.

But a different reefer that started at pH 7.8 and dropped to pH 7.5 would not be making a wise decision, in my opinion.

When you say your “precipitation issues went away” I hope you are not talking about the white cloudiness that happens when the product hits the water. That is not something that needs or benefits from correction. I do agree that abiotic precipitation on heaters and pumps will be reduced as you lower pH and will rise as you raise pH, however you accomplish it. Coral calcification may also be reduced at lower pH.

 

[bdare]

What alk problem went away by switching from carbonate to bicarbonate?

Mostly fluctuations from the precipitation. I also added multiple small doses through a speatrapure LiterMeter III into areas of high flow(years ago). Always made sure mg was high to help reduce precip etc. Went to clean my pumps and they were encrusted. On this old tank I had a closed loop. Broke it down and there was crust inside all the plumbing.

Someone at the time suggested trying baking soda. It was like magic. Alk was stable from then on out. Since then I've suggested the same to many people on these and other forms. I've been sent many beers over the interwebs based on that suggestion

I'm sure it works for some... but it didn't for me.

 

[mich2599]

you describe 0.3 pH unit increase as “not much”?
If you start at pH 8.5 and drop to 8.2 by switching to bicarbonate, that seems a perfectly fine decision.

But a different reefer that started at pH 7.8 and dropped to pH 7.5 would not be making a wise decision, in my opinion.

When you say your “precipitation issues went away” I hope you are not talking about the white cloudiness that happens when the product hits the water. That is not something that needs or benefits from correction. I do agree that abiotic precipitation on heaters and pumps will be reduced as you lower pH and will rise as you raise pH, however you accomplish it. Coral calcification may also be reduced at lower pH.

I agree with @Randy Holmes-Farley. My tank I would say stays on the low side of the Ph requirements. I like the benefit of having that “temporary” Ph boost at night.

 

[RomaAquatics]

The deal is this is normal, if you are doing it properly. It is local precipitation of magnesium hydroxide that comes with any high PH additive and it will dissolve as it mixes in. Adding more slowly to a higher turbulence area and diluting more can reduce it, if it concerns you.

Thank you for your reply. It really puts my mind at ease about it. If the white flakes that form are just magnesium hydroxide and will redissolve I have no concerns with it. I was just worried that it was the bad kind of precipitation.

 

[Stigigemla]

Typically You get a pH rise of about 0,2 when You shift bicarbonate to soda ash.
That means that You get closer to the solubility limit of both calcium carbonate and magnesium carbonate.
And that means that if You lower Your magnesium and calcium level You will get less problems.
The levels in the sea is about 1280 and 400 with around 7 in kH. Corals do good in those values in the nature.

 

[FortyFour44]

This answered my question as well. Thank you.

 

[Fennel]

Is there a reason why when I add BRS soda ash to increase Alk it precipitates so rapidly? My Mg is at least 1350 and Ca around 460. I’ll have to retest parameters this afternoon. But nevertheless this has been going on since I first bought the 2 part pharma. I add a little bit at a time right above my power head but yet the majority still manages to precipitate. I also have some Brightwell Reef code B and that does not
precipitate. Any ideas?

First, I have an old coral reef rock piece I got from a pet store. It got slime algae so I set up a ten gal just to experiment with parameters and live rock. Nothing in it but the rock, a little sand and whatever bacteria survives. So, of course I just added some soda ash that was watered down.. then calicum chloride and epsom salt.. the idea is to kill the algae.. and cycle the tank eventually, no rush. I now have a tank full of cloudy snow precipitation. The flocculant is next. The parameters are not suitable for life other than bacteria.. right now.. but there are so many little grooves and holes in the rock, I don't want to use bleach. So chemi clean.. my point is, if saltwater tank keeping gets sloppy and isn't measured right, you get cloudy water and strange parameters. I find feeding the pet rock more amusing than fish.. cathartic.. just saying.. I know I am not the only one just screwing around blowing off specifics for laughs to see if anything sprouts, survives or pops up doing this.. before I commit to sustaining life on the rock.. kwim?

 

[Fennel]

Why do you people continue to throw money away on BRS soda ash when plain old baking soda(same thing their using in their "pharma" pouch) is just so cheap and does not precipitate out. Soda ash increases the PH which can also cause it to precipitate more. Plain baking soda while not as strong(requires more to be used), does not create a PH spike when adding and will not precipitate out as easy.

FWIW, BRS based their dosing chemicals off of @Randy Holmes-Farley's DIY 2 part.

Permanent pH change with soda ash, temp with baking soda. Lazy really, and would rather take my time cycling the tank, the cloud from soda ash seemingly tends to keep the bacteria around..idk just depends, a lot to consider with saltwater, price, permanence, stability, price, ease of keeping etc.. but yeah for stuff like this just cook the baking soda, bake it.. look it up. Maybe boiling baking soda would prevent the cloud.. I might try that next. The live rock will outlast most fish, so I figured I would enjoy it and water chemistry as long as possible.

 

[Fennel]

Adding too fast or in too little flow can have this effect. Or the concentration of the solution is wrong.

How fast do you dump it in? It should be drizzled in slowly, imo.

I add a steady slow stream where the surface agitation is greatest in my tank. It clouds but doesn't turn solid. If I dump it all in, it's turns solid on me. I'm adding 15ml twice a day.

No matter the amount of soda ash used, it always goes creamy like that on me. Bare bottom tank with some sand residue, live sand I will add later.. still cycling. I guess that's how it permanently changes alk by going creamy chunky and slimy like that.. then it will mix up in sand and the rest filters out. Shouldn't have to go all off on it again adding soda ash for awhile, but idk. Pet rock stage..

 

[bdare]

No matter the amount of soda ash used, it always goes creamy like that on me. Bare bottom tank with some sand residue, live sand I will add later.. still cycling. I guess that's how it permanently changes alk by going creamy chunky and slimy like that.. then it will mix up in sand and the rest filters out. Shouldn't have to go all off on it again adding soda ash for awhile, but idk. Pet rock stage..

It does not permanently change anything. Please stop saying that and read Randy's chemistry articles.

 

[Fennel]

It does not permanently change anything. Please stop saying that and read Randy's chemistry articles.

On another note, there was an article, I think from one of these reef supply stores that said it did. I am not interested in chemistry articles right now. I have had it with testing and shelling out money. So we will see what soda ash does to a tank cycling with no water changes for a year.. if it stays stable, just using zooplankton and phytoplankton to feed the bacteria, then the ph change soda ash causes is permanent until a water change. Baking soda is not permanent. Check out brs tv on YouTube.. they are who said soda ash leaves a permanent change in pH.

 

[Mike konesky]

Brs has been saying it's a temporary pH increase for years.

 

[bdare]

On another note, there was an article, I think from one of these reef supply stores that said it did. I am not interested in chemistry articles right now. I have had it with testing and shelling out money. So we will see what soda ash does to a tank cycling with no water changes for a year.. if it stays stable, just using zooplankton and phytoplankton to feed the bacteria, then the ph change soda ash causes is permanent until a water change. Baking soda is not permanent. Check out brs tv on YouTube.. they are who said soda ash leaves a permanent change in pH.

Neither are permanent. Both are temporary because of the CO2 in your house and lack of gas exchange.

keep in mind... there is more at risk than what you may be aware of. 15 years ago I also wanted to try soda ash because of the perceived benefit of a ph boost.... later discovered that precipitation collects in pumps, heaters and in your plumbing.

good luck

 

[Fennel]

Neither are permanent. Both are temporary because of the CO2 in your house and lack of gas exchange.

keep in mind... there is more at risk than what you may be aware of. 15 years ago I also wanted to try soda ash because of the perceived benefit of a ph boost.... later discovered that precipitation collects in pumps, heaters and in your plumbing.

good luck

Thanks. Yeah I am using cheap stuff to keep it filtered and circulated. The residue on the glass might make a nice spot for coralline algae to set up. I don't plan on spending on the set up anytime soon, unless the hob filter goes out, then I might buy another. But the glass and rock can go ahead and calcify, precipitation can happen and a flocculant can clear it for my amusement. Permanent or not, it is fine.

 

[Fennel]

Neither are permanent. Both are temporary because of the CO2 in your house and lack of gas exchange.

keep in mind... there is more at risk than what you may be aware of. 15 years ago I also wanted to try soda ash because of the perceived benefit of a ph boost.... later discovered that precipitation collects in pumps, heaters and in your plumbing.

good luck

Two words: citric acid. Co2 and cleans, plus it's going to kill algae and soak the reef rock. This is a pre-cycle soak I am going to try: citric acid, soda ash, calcium chloride, epsom salt, chitosan based flocculant, in reef crystal and dechlorinate water and just let it sit in an aquarium with a hob pump, aquascaped, and decide if permanently having it is choice. then water changes in like a few months. F it. Pet rock stage, like I said.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Permanent pH change with soda ash, temp with baking soda. Lazy really, and would rather take my time cycling the tank, the cloud from soda ash seemingly tends to keep the bacteria around..idk just depends, a lot to consider with saltwater, price, permanence, stability, price, ease of keeping etc.. but yeah for stuff like this just cook the baking soda, bake it.. look it up. Maybe boiling baking soda would prevent the cloud.. I might try that next. The live rock will outlast most fish, so I figured I would enjoy it and water chemistry as long as possible.

I'm not really sure what you are trying to accomplish, but since we have expert chemists in this forum, it's not really necessary or useful to hypothesize crazy stuff. We know exactly what happens if you boil a solution of sodium bicarbonate.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Two words: citric acid. Co2 and cleans, plus it's going to kill algae and soak the reef rock. This is a pre-cycle soak I am going to try: citric acid, soda ash, calcium chloride, epsom salt, chitosan based flocculant, in reef crystal and dechlorinate water and just let it sit in an aquarium with a hob pump, aquascaped, and decide if permanently having it is choice. then water changes in like a few months. F it. Pet rock stage, like I said.

Again, for what purpose?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

On another note, there was an article, I think from one of these reef supply stores that said it did. I am not interested in chemistry articles right now. I have had it with testing and shelling out money. So we will see what soda ash does to a tank cycling with no water changes for a year.. if it stays stable, just using zooplankton and phytoplankton to feed the bacteria, then the ph change soda ash causes is permanent until a water change. Baking soda is not permanent. Check out brs tv on YouTube.. they are who said soda ash leaves a permanent change in pH.

Anyone who said the effect of any alk additive on pH is permanent is simply wrong.

 

[Fennel]

I'm not really sure what you are trying to accomplish, but since we have expert chemists in this forum, it's not really necessary or useful to hypothesize crazy stuff. We know exactly what happens if you boil a solution of sodium bicarbonate.

Great by all means be hoity toity about it and keep it to yourself instead of telling the rest of us who don't have the chemistry to know better. We research what we can, but I mean otherwise why don't you just say whether or not boiling creates soda ash that is slimy or not. Otherwise curing live rock is one neutralization after another for bacteria to live. Besides who the f are you anyway?