Bryopsis Cure: My Battle With Bryopsis Using Fluconazole

[NCreefguy]

Just to add to the info here several members that have ran this treatment also sent samples off for a TRITON ICP analysis and all results came back normal or within whats considered 'normal" ranges. I believe one test had slightly elavated Tin levels but he had also used AlgaeX if I'm not mistaking.Then again,I can't remember if he found out where the Tin was coming from. @d2mini didn't RHF look at your tests results and say he didn't see any harmful levels of anything? Or was that someone else?


We will be getting Tests after we past the one year mark soon in our tanks but I'm not expecting anything different.

 

[NCreefguy]

do you remember when we used dog heartworm med to kill red bugs on sps 10 years ago? if it works and has no ill effects on corals than why not use the stuff? I did and luckily that time I did not have any bleaching.

Oh yeah I remember and I've got one tank full of hydroids that are going to get a dose of Fish Bendazole as soon as I can work up the nerve to pick 300+ snails out of that tank.

 

[coralcruze]

Just to add to the info here several members that have ran this treatment also sent samples off for a TRITON ICP analysis and all results came back normal or within whats considered 'normal" ranges. I believe one test had slightly elavated Tin levels but he had also used AlgaeX if I'm not mistaking.Then again,I can't remember if he found out where the Tin was coming from. @d2mini didn't RHF look at your tests results and say he didn't see any harmful levels of anything? Or was that someone else?


We will be getting Tests after we past the one year mark soon in our tanks but I'm not expecting anything different.

I for one would be VERY VERY interested in seeing these triton results.

 

[NCreefguy]

I for one would be VERY VERY interested in seeing these triton results.

I'll definitely post my results when we get them. Let's see if d2mini still has his. I know there were several people who had theirs tested. Wait ....Would this be considered "scientific proof" for you?

 

[coralcruze]

I'll definitely post my results when we get them. Let's see if d2mini still has his. I know there were several people who had theirs tested. Wait ....Would this be considered "scientific proof" for you?

NO, I would not consider Triton lab test results scientific proof on their own as definitive one way or the other because we dont really know the conditions of the tank the tests were taken from. but laboratory grade test results are a great tool.. especially tested under lab conditions. not our random tanks with no control tank to compare.

Since you asked nicely

The Scientific Method

• Purpose/Question
  
• Research
• Hypothesis
  
• Experiment
• Analysis

In order to say definitively one way or the other I am particularly interested in the 'experiment' part of the scientific method under lab conditions. That would include a control.
know what I mean? I guess on a very simplistic level we could compare all Triton results and see if we can pick out a common 'contaminant' present. Its but a start.

I think i now need a break and talk to my friend Maggie, our Viagra expert. This is exhausting, LOL

 

[zack801]

I've posted my triton results recently. Actually the flucanzole and subsequent seemingly random rtn of some acros promoted me to send in the water samples. I just came across a video of Jason fox on YouTube talking about using flucanzole for bryopsis. Around 30 minutes in a believe. So I'm inclined to believe it wasn't directly the fluncanzol that caused the rtn for me. It may however have been caused by the rapid increase in my nitrates/phosphates or some random pathogen of acro related illness of some kind. Coralcruz you mentioned wanting examples of sps dominant tanks using flucanzole. I don't think you'll find anyone that fits that category better than Jason

 

[NCreefguy]

It may however have been caused by the rapid increase in my nitrates/phosphates

This more than anything is what I believe is happening for some people.

 

[NCreefguy]

I don't think you'll find anyone that fits that category better than Jason

Exactly. I've mentioned that there were several big vendors that are using Fluconazole now and loving it. He is definitley one who knows his corals.

 

[coralcruze]

I've posted my triton results recently. Actually the flucanzole and subsequent seemingly random rtn of some acros promoted me to send in the water samples. I just came across a video of Jason fox on YouTube talking about using flucanzole for bryopsis. Around 30 minutes in a believe. So I'm inclined to believe it wasn't directly the fluncanzol that caused the rtn for me. It may however have been caused by the rapid increase in my nitrates/phosphates or some random pathogen of acro related illness of some kind. Coralcruz you mentioned wanting examples of sps dominant tanks using flucanzole. I don't think you'll find anyone that fits that category better than Jason

I saw that video in its entirety months ago... No Jason does not fit the mold at all. His system is hundreds of gallons and more in par to commercial sized system.. well it is commercial sized.

 

[coralcruze]

It may however have been caused by the rapid increase in my nitrates/phosphates

This more than anything is what I believe is happening for some people.

It may very well be a cause and effect thing. but even if that is the case that does not make Flucon (the cause) safe for the reef because if it raises Po4 (the effect) than we are either overdosing flucon or perhaps dosing too quickly to sustain what is 'acceptable' po4 increases so corals don't RTN. Afterall, why have we dosed floucon in the first place? isn't it to save the corals? but they are being killed instead ( in my case just bleached to date) in others tanks outright RTN/STN events.

 

[NCreefguy]

It may very well be a cause and effect thing. but even if that is the case that does not make Flucon safe (the cause) for the reef because if it raises Po4 (the effect) than we are either overdosing flucon or perhaps dosing too quickly to sustain what is 'acceptable' po4 increases so corals don't RTN. Afterall, why have we dosed floucon in the first place? isn't it to save the corals? but they are being killed instead ( in my case just bleached to date) in others tanks outright RTN/STN events.

The Flucon is not raising po4/no3...That's coming from the algae die off and not skimming/removing waste. You can actually perform water changes while treating your tank to bring down the excess and replace the flucon but we haven't suggested this because getting the amount of replacement flucon correct will worry a lot of people.

 

[NCreefguy]

I saw that video in its entirety months ago... No Jason does not fit the mold at all. His system is hundreds of gallons and more in par to commercial sized system.. well it is commercial sized.

Well to be honest you did say this..

I just wasnt paying attention that most of these people were not growing SPS corals. aggrrrr.

Jason Fox IS growing SPS corals. The size of the system doesn't matter it is still dosed proportionately in mgs per gallon. No matter if its a jar or a swimming pool.

As I've said there are tons of SPS corals being grown right now in Fluconazole without having any issues.

 

[hart24601]

I kept asking what exact scientific proof you would accept, which I never found out, for a reason. Many times there is nothing that will change someone's mind. They might ask for evidence, but when pressed what exactly they want you will get only vague generalizations that no one can provide - and that is the point - there is nothing that can change the person's mind. Once you find out that there is nothing the person will accept it's pointless to keep discussing with them. You dismiss results in a large system, you dismiss results in small systems, you dismiss results with SPS and non-SPS tanks.

I see you posted the scientific method, you know that is what we teach to children and is just a rough guideline right? It more about a way of thinking then a rigid set of steps. Modern science rarely follows that list and is based much more on observations and analytics. I personally have worked as a microbiologist for Pfizer doing vaccine development, then microbial inoculants for many years and now as an analytic consultant analyzing data so I am familiar with the process.

You might be aware that most coral research is performed with small systems. If Fluconazole was inherently toxic to coral, like your JF lepto, then why would mine be totally fine despite dosing rate much higher, greater than 150mg/g, and in an isolated system with no dosing, no filters, no media and simple 100% weekly W/C where the Fluconazole is added back to the new water. Of course my other SPS showed no change either, but lets focus on JF lepto since we have the same coral. Of course this jar is not publication research by any measure! However to dismiss all these results is foolish and will distract people and yourself from finding what is really causing you issues or what about the treatment indirectly caused problems. Quite frankly this little 2g jar reef is probably about the closest thing you are going to find to a controlled experimental setup. Was there a control group, no, but if we are looking at a plus/minus phenotypic result (Bleaching - Yes/No) it's not critical step if that phenotype was not seen. We can reasonably infer that Fluconazole in this case did not cause bleaching as there was none seen. If I had seen bleaching then many more questions would need to be investigated.

 

[d2mini]

Just to add to the info here several members that have ran this treatment also sent samples off for a TRITON ICP analysis and all results came back normal or within whats considered 'normal" ranges. I believe one test had slightly elavated Tin levels but he had also used AlgaeX if I'm not mistaking.Then again,I can't remember if he found out where the Tin was coming from. @d2mini didn't RHF look at your tests results and say he didn't see any harmful levels of anything? Or was that someone else?


We will be getting Tests after we past the one year mark soon in our tanks but I'm not expecting anything different.

Seems to be fairly common to see elevated Tin. Randy said it wasn't high enough to worry about.

 

[coralcruze]

@d2mini. Yeah i trust Randy Homes Farlys advice. Thats why i posted to his forum on this as well. Interesting what the chemists had to say.

@hart24601 there is a reason I didnt respond to you when you asked. That reason should be abviously clear to everyone with your responces since you are 'trying to be a jerk'. and... if the process of science is rudimentry and you are such the expert than why are you playing with JARS and calling it science. give me a break!

 

[coralcruze]

The Flucon is not raising po4/no3...That's coming from the algae die off and not skimming/removing waste.

Yes thats what I meant by cause and effect. if the flucon is killing something which is raising po4 no3 levels which can kill the corals it does not matter if the floucon is/isnt killing directly or not the end result is the same. If we are dosing flucon and you have recomended in your first posts to turn skimming off than we may need a new method of dosing it. dont you think?

Im not so sure that the RTN/STN/BLEACHING events is less than 3% occurance because there is no scientific process here in this post. at the same time can anyone really ignore this result outright? Is that responsible?

AND... if po4 and no3 are being raised by the die off of bryopsis that why is there bleaching (loss of color)? shouldnt we see browning out of SPS instead in a nutrient rich state?

I had so little of the bryopsis in my sump that i cant imagine that its die off can cause increased levels. perhaps flucon was killing off more than just the small patch of bryopsis?

 

[NCreefguy]

Yes thats what I meant by cause and effect. if the flucon is killing something which is raising po4 no3 levels which can kill the corals it does not matter if the floucon is/isnt killing directly or not the end result is the same. If we are dosing flucon and you have recomended in your first posts to turn skimming off than we may need a new method of dosing it. dont you think?

Im not so sure that the RTN/STN/BLEACHING events is less than 3% occurance because there is no scientific process here in this post. at the same time can anyone really ignore this result outright? Is that responsible?

AND... if po4 and no3 are being raised by the die off of bryopsis that why is there bleaching (loss of color)? shouldnt we see browning out of SPS instead in a nutrient rich state?

I had so little of the bryopsis in my sump that i cant imagine that its die off can cause increased levels. perhaps flucon was killing off more than just the small patch of bryopsis?

In my first post I said I turned off my skimmer because that's what I found people were doing over seas several years ago. Since then we have had people who tried this treatment both ways with skimmer on/skimmer off. What we found from some peoples experiences was that they were initially skimming too much of the meds out of the water in the first day or two and causing the treatment to not be as effective. This treatment has worked for many though who said that they left their skimmers on however so it became a personal preference while knowing there was a possiblity of skimming out some meds.

Corals can bleach out from being stressed from the raised nutrient levels. You should know by now how picky some SPS can be. I've had corals bleach out and die on me just from moving it from one side of the tank to the other.

 

[coralcruze]

bleaching is usually caused by nutrient deprived environment not nutirient rich. nutrient rich environment usually causes browning out of color not bleaching. are you confusing bleaching (loss of color) with RTN/STN?

I still have bryopsis in my sump after the treatment with skimmer off. I would say the bryopsis is about 75% dead. however, still there.

 

[hart24601]

@d2mini. Yeah i trust Randy Homes Farlys advice. Thats why i posted to his forum on this as well. Interesting what the chemists had to say.

@hart24601 there is a reason I didnt respond to you when you asked. That reason should be abviously clear to everyone with your responces since you are 'trying to be a jerk'. and... if the process of science is rudimentry and you are such the expert than why are you playing with JARS and calling it science. give me a break!

I think you might want to learn a bit more about what science is. You clearly struggle with the basic concepts and bias.

Why would I play with JARS and call it science? Have you looked at coral research articles? Familiar with controlling variables? Your experimental systems would be 100 gallon tanks?

 

[coralcruze]

here is my saphfire flame acro before dosing flucon


after doseing floucon