Can we discuss this?

[jonbar1]

To answer the OP, I think you need to take some things into account. We as humans are pretty limited when it comes to seeing the big picture. We see tiny pieces and envision a picture in our head that makes sense to us. The more pieces we see, the more the picture changes and the more we realize how much bigger the picture is than we first thought. Whoever said "the more we know, the more we know how much we don't know" was dead on. Saying evolution did or didn't happen as an absolute is like finding a blade of grass and saying America is a vast grassland. Eventually you find a stick and say it was a grassland with shrubs. More findings means more pieces of the land to account for and more explanations. This leads to theories. Evolution is a THEORY. We find things that raise questions and come up with ways to explain them. The more findings we have and the more we can get the findings to fit together, the more solid the theory becomes. We can test them and have a predictable outcome. Gravity is also a theory. It explains things that happen and can be predictably tested, but there are things we don't fully understand which leads to other theories like dark matter and dark energy. Theories are like temporary best understandings until something comes along to make more sense of them. They are not set in stone and not meant to be taken as such.

I personally think evolution is a great theory. It pieces together a lot of things predictably and gives a changeable picture to the pieces we find. The more nature related things I study like plants and animals the more it makes sense of local adaptations and variations of species. BUT, it is a structure to help understand how things progressed, not why. Why did different atoms combine to form a self replicating molecule that is changing and adapting over time to billions of different life forms is where faith can come into play. We can test how and make theories for how things started, but that in no way rules out a creator as one of the reasons why.

Now I am in no way qualified to explain God or the bible, so take this for what it's worth. I imagine when the bible was written, a full explanation of how things are would be out of the grasp of just about any human mind. If God came down and explained everything to you today even, how would you explain it to other people without making them scratch their heads? Sometimes you have to give the gist of things and skimp on the meticulous details and tell it in a way that would let everyone make sense of it.

So basically, don't consider this an A or B choice. Saying you absolutely don't believe something means you are limiting yourself to untold possibilities. If it doesn't make sense to you, just doubt it and leave some wiggle room until more pieces are found.

 

[revsgirl]

sent pm :D

 

[droblack]

Alfred Wallace, a religious man, was the first to come up with and to begin to write about and understand evolution. He wrote a letter to Charles Darwin explaining his ideas. Darwin had returned from his travels on the Beagle, and wrote about barnacles for 7 years. Obviously, he didn't get it yet and never got it quite right. Upon realizing the brilliance of Wallace's theory, Darwin used his family's wealth and connections to propel his book "On The Origin of Species". Darwin was an atheist, and believed evolution to be proof of a mechanical universe. Wallace, viewed evolution as proof of God or a higher power. So, the war between science and religion was largely fueled by plagiarism and misrepresented science.

God created evolution. Everything changes, and we are here to do so as well. The message is written everywhere in nature.

 

[clowns101]

sent pm :D

Atleast I got to read it before you edited it! Very nice post and very great in detail!

 

[revsgirl]

LOL!! I just sent the PM, I had to explain myself in the first one and separate them because it was too long! :tongue: Since you already read the other, you can just open the first pm.. lol

 

[clowns101]

LOL!! I just sent the PM, I had to explain myself in the first one and separate them because it was too long! :tongue: Since you already read the other, you can just open the first pm.. lol

haha, I responded to your PM!

 

[_sludgefactory]

Why is it that w can go on and on about a potentially offensive topic like religion but when i opened a thread about SOPA it got instantly deleted?



Tank thread: https://www.reef2reef.com/forums/showthread.php?t=81000

LG P999 EaglesBlood 2.8, Trinity ELPmax

 

[jhawkor]

I think what he meant is 100%, there is no proof of evolution as they are all still considered theories yet out is known as fact that 100% Jesus did exist and his miracles were acknowledged by believers and non believers alike.

For God so loved the world that he Gave his only son so that whosoever believes in him shall not perish but have ever lasting life. Jesus died for us while we were still sinners, He died for all of us even those who do not believe in him.

You need to understand the difference between scientific theory and the common use of the word. Scientific theory is right below scientific law, which there are VERY few of. You would be hard-pressed to find an accredited biologist that does not accept evolution as fact.

 

[m and m]

First I would like to say I was brought up catholic went to a catholic school most my life and my girlfriend still goes and tries to take me every now and then to church.

Now my point, Have you ever read the bible, like actually read it and understood and thought about it. It is very dated and unreal things written in it, times have changed. I will not say my current beliefs but it all comes down to faith. From a realist point of view a man being able to see with the motion of your hand or a superpower being here before anything and creating it all seems a little unrealalistic but it comes down to your faith in his word and his teaching. If you want to be a cathlic there will be many unexplainable and even unrealalistic things you must just believe. I'm not saying "Ahhh if you don't believe those things your not cathlic" just those teaching you must have faith in even though your better judgment might tell you otherwise.

 

[-Logzor]

To answer the OP:

The Bible has a lot of statements in it people pick and choose to believe. Some are extremely controversial if taken literally. Most of you probably saw the online video of a preacher recommending the government execute a certain group of people based on a phrase in the Bible. Of course, 99.9% of people wouldn't agree with this man.

People act that if they believe in evolution then they must toss out their entire religion. That's ridiculous. Unless you believe in everything single thing literally then there is no reason you can't add evolution as another one of the topics where you and the Bible diverge or interpret differently. Do you really think that a 2000 year old document that was originally in another language translated correctly? Huge mistakes happen all the time with translation, different cultures, etc. Lookup "Engrish" if you understand what I'm talking about.

As an aside, no theory can ever been fully proven, ever. There are too many variables. Even scientific law, it doesn't work at the quantum level.

One thing we do know that happens is mutation. That has been proven via empirical scientific observation and experimentation. It happens every day. Why do you think we're spending billions of dollars developing new pesticides every year? Naturally resistance offspring survive and create new offspring. Evolution.

To play devil advocate you could say that evolution does not technically exist because living organisms harbor the potential in their genetic code for mutation and change. Therefore it was already built into them to some degree.

 

[mainereefer]

scientists have proven people have energy. they actually recorded energy leaving a body when someone dies. energy cant die!

so scientists have proven life after death.

me personally I am christian (no denomination)
I believe in the church but not in church if that makes any sense

 

[johnanddawn]

You need to understand the difference between scientific theory and the common use of the word. Scientific theory is right below scientific law, which there are VERY few of. You would be hard-pressed to find an accredited biologist that does not accept evolution as fact.

thanks for bringing this up but i need to clarify your words, and hopefully maybe a quick science lesson here for all

a theory is an idea that explains what we observe - it is based on observations of "HOW" the natural world works
evolution is NOT (need i say again NOT) a theory - it is an observation. We observe that life on earth has changed over time
- this is an observational fact!
one need only look at the fossil record to find life forms that once existed on earth and no longer do, ie the type of life forms on earth has changed over time.

The theory (an attempt to explain how this happens) is NATURAL SELECTION as presented by Darwin/Wallace 150 years ago.
Natural selection has 4 basic tenets that suggests that 1) because all organisms produce more off spring that is neccesary to maintain the population
and 2) all of these offspring have slight genetic differences which may or may not be better suited to survival and reproduction,
3) there is a limited amount of resourses for these offspring and only some will survive to reproduce themselves,
and 4) they will pass their genes to the next generation.
therby each successive generation is slightly different then the former.
this theory has withstood the scruttiny of many generations and is basically excepted by the scientific community as the best theory to explain what we observe happening in nature

A law on the otherhand is the HOW nature works it is an emperical based mathematical relationship between an independent variable and the dependent. there is no LAW associated with evolution. (mendalian genetics is a law however)
Evolution is far to complex and based on change that is both systematic and chaotic, ie the dinos didn't go extinct because they were unsuited to their environment - they just happened to have lived before the asteroid hit
an example of a law is the common F=ma (Newtons 2nd law) that compares the acceleration of an object (the dependent variable) to the Force applied or the mass of said object (the independent variables)

theories do not become laws and laws are not theories - theories explain HOW nature works and laws WHY nature does - not both

so now that we understand that evolution is neither a scientific theory or law - evolution is an observation!!!!

now you can put your faith/beliefs in any where you want - just be prepared to defend your hypothesis with researchable facts, observational data, experiments, and when you are prepared to defend it against the scruttiny of the entire scientific communtity and you have entered the realm of science
:)
as you can see science and faith do not work the same way but they need not be exclusive, many have found a way to understand the differences and maintain both

 

[dougers31]

How many times has Genesis and the story of creation changed? Now how many times has the theory(now basically taught as fact in school) of evolution changed in the last 20 years or so??? When I went to school the earth was "millions" of years old, now its hundreds of billions(after all time is our creator not God)...

Look at yourself in the mirror, really look, your hands, your eyes, your ears, your internal organs(not visible from the outside;). Now look at some pond scum... you came from that but it just took some time... I believe God made us in his image and that we are "fearfully and wonderfully made". We are all miracles and need to treat each other as such.

Now while I believe in a literal interpretation of Genesis I also believe that its possible that this planet(though lifeless at the time) has been here possibly for a very long time since it mentions God's spirit hovering over the waters(of earth, no land above water mentioned) before creation... But from everything I've read and seen I believe the "living earth" has been around for 6 to 8 thousand years or so.

Just a few other things that come to mind...
The coelacanth Coelacanth - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia was initially thought to be a transitional form, now they are saying it evolved into its current state 400 MILLION years ago and remains unchanged today.

Dinosaurs are mentioned in the old testament... Behemoth(Job 40:15-24) and Leviathan(Job 41:1-29) in the book of Job. There are other mentions of similar creatures in the old testament as well.

There are real actual scientists that believe in a young earth created by God, one of which is Dr. Raymond DamadianRaymond Vahan Damadian - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia who was one of the inventors of the MRI. If you read the wiki link pay attention to the last two paragraphs.... Ken Ham and Dr. Gary Parker(former evolutionist) are a couple others that come to mind. Ken Ham usually has a pretty hard time finding anyone from the evolutionist side that wants to debate him in a public forum... I've seen it firsthand and Ken(respectfully) mops the floor with them IMO.

Jesus himself quotes Genesis as fact several times in the New testament. Here is a link and also a paragraph from a Christian website with the info.
Genesis: Real, Reliable, Historical

Jesus Regarded Genesis as Real HistoryIf Jesus was (and is) both the Creator God and a perfect man, then His pronouncements are always and absolutely trustworthy. And Jesus referred directly to details in each of the first seven chapters of Genesis fifteen times. For example, Jesus referred to Genesis 1:26-27 when He said in Mark 10:6, "But from the beginning of the creation God made them male and female." Man was created male and female "from the beginning of the creation," not after millions of years. In the very next verse, Jesus quotes directly from Genesis 2:24 when He said, "For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and cleave to his wife; and they twain shall be one flesh." Five times Jesus refers to Noah and/or the destructive global Flood as real history. If He, as the Creator, was actually a witness to the events of Genesis 1-11, then we have no alternative but to regard these opening chapters of the Bible as reliable history.​

To sum up, Satan is the greatest liar to ever exist, his goal is to take as many of us with him(Because he hates us and knows his fate IMO), and away from God's love as possible. Genesis is the foundation of God's Word, take that away(with evolution) and the bible becomes just a book that is perceived as fallible.... Jesus is the greatest truth teller that ever existed in human or spiritual form.... who are you going to believe?

 

[dougers31]

I really wish R2R would allow editing of posts after 5 minutes:(

Some stuff I wanted to add...

A pretty good movie to watch is Ben Stien's Expelled, no intelligence allowed;) It shows how teachers and professors who believe in creation/intelligent design have been basically blacklisted etc. One of our local science teachers(has won teacher of the year and has participated/worked with Nasa) who is a friend of mine is a firm young earth believer, and would be much better than me at discussing this issue.... Now if I can just get him to join R2R;)

 

[jhawkor]

I really wish R2R would allow editing of posts after 5 minutes:(

Some stuff I wanted to add...

A pretty good movie to watch is Ben Stien's Expelled, no intelligence allowed;) It shows how teachers and professors who believe in creation/intelligent design have been basically blacklisted etc. One of our local science teachers(has won teacher of the year and has participated/worked with Nasa) who is a friend of mine is a firm young earth believer, and would be much better than me at discussing this issue.... Now if I can just get him to join R2R;)

If they are teaching creationism in a public school or university, they should be 'blacklisted'. It is fine if you believe that the Earth is merely thousands of years old, but it should not be taught in a Science classroom seeing as how there is no evidence to support it, other than a story in a two thousand year-old book.

 

[revhtree Verified Admin]

I have refrained from posting in this thread and for good reason. Honestly this type thread is better served in another type of forum. I want to stop this thread before it leads to hard feelings or anything else. I am the last guy who wants to have to shut down these type threads but I think it is time.

I am going to be announcing a whole new site/forum that I am creating soon so we can discuss topics like this and them actually be on topic! ;)

For now if you would like to discuss this more please PM each other.

Thank you.