Can you plumb a tank on the same horizontal level as the sump?

[RickVan]

Putting in a basement sump, main tank is upstairs. How can I add a 30 gallon tank that is in the basement to the same system without putting the sump on the floor to allow gravity to power the out flow from the small tank to the sump? I want to have the sump at waist level for ease of maintenance. Has anyone done this? If using a pump or pumps, in and out would have to be identical right? Is this possible?

 

[14 foot reef]

Putting in a basement sump, main tank is upstairs. How can I add a 30 gallon tank that is in the basement to the same system without putting the sump on the floor to allow gravity to power the out flow from the small tank to the sump? I want to have the sump at waist level for ease of maintenance. Has anyone done this? If using a pump or pumps, in and out would have to be identical right? Is this possible?

Long term stability is impossible this way. you have to do a gravity feed to the sump, no way around it, at some point something you hook up and design this way will fail and then its a disaster.

 

[Reef - Tripp]

Just join them together with bulkhead as if you were expanding the sump size.

 

[Big Smelly fish]

you would be feed the extra tank downstairs with its own return pump from the sump so why not. I’ve had multiple tanks connected to one sump in the past . They all worked independently. Now you do have to have a large enough sump to hold the water from both tanks if you lose power.

 

[14 foot reef]

you would be feed the extra tank downstairs with its own return pump from the sump so why not. I’ve had multiple tanks connected to one sump in the past . They all worked independently. Now you do have to have a large enough sump to hold the water from both tanks if you lose power.

He wants them on the exact same horizontal level, that's the challenge, you can't drain water up hill.

 

[Big Smelly fish]

He wants them on the exact same horizontal level, that's the challenge, you can't drain water up hill.

Ok I can see that being a problem, I was thinking sump on flood in basement and tank on stand in basement. I can’t help with that

 

[Greg Gdowski]

You have to be a bit more specific.

Here is a 60G tank on the same horizontal level as my sump. The 60G is a bit taller. So I feed it with a pump in the sump and drain it back to the sump via gravity.

I've been using that 60G tank as a buffer for my 200G upstairs which I just started. All of my live rock, the refugium, and the reactors are plumbed into that 60G tank. Its the lifeline of the 200G for now. Once the 200G is acclimated and cycles, I'll begin to transition the 60G into something else.

Is that what you were looking for?

 

[Greg Gdowski]

You have to be a bit more specific.

Here is a 60G tank on the same horizontal level as my sump. The 60G is a bit taller. So I feed it with a pump in the sump and drain it back to the sump via gravity.

I've been using that 60G tank as a buffer for my 200G upstairs which I just started. All of my live rock, the refugium, and the reactors are plumbed into that 60G tank. Its the lifeline of the 200G for now. Once the 200G is acclimated and cycles, I'll begin to transition the 60G into something else.

Is that what you were looking for?

BTW --- that pump is different from the pump that I use to return water to the display tank on the 1st floor.

 

[Greg Gdowski]

So if your 30G has a lower height than your sump -- it would be best to raise it above your sump. BUT --- it does not have to be much more than 3-4 inches above it so that you can create a solid drain back to the sump that is driven by gravity. I had just barely enough clearance to make it work with that 60G. I wanted to add a frag tank as well... but that would mean that the top of the frag tank would likely have to be around the same height as the 60G.

 

[RickVan]

Thanks for all the help! I like the join the two with bulkheads idea, but the 30 is about 10 feet from where I want to put the sump. Seems like there would have to be something moving the water back and forth, but the back would have to be identical to the forth right?

 

[Greg Gdowski]

Thanks for all the help! I like the join the two with bulkheads idea, but the 30 is about 10 feet from where I want to put the sump. Seems like there would have to be something moving the water back and forth, but the back would have to be identical to the forth right?

Even at 10' it doesn't have to be that much. A lot of the plumbing in your house drains at fairly shallow angles. I have a run from my garage to a main line in the basement that drops maybe 15" or so over 20ft. It really doesn't have to be that much.

I can envision a system that would pump in both directions but I'm not sure I would do it either. There are just a lot of risks. A blocked line on one side. A siphon starting by accident. If I did it, I would probably use one of the measuring tape water level sensors.

These sensors have an analog signal proportional to water height. One of these could tell you if the pumps were not matched. It would allow you to control the flow somewhat. You could set a threshold where the pumps turn off and on. These sensors would be better than a standard level sensor that are subject to salt creep and other problems.

You could also use a standard sensor at a height located well above the water level that would turn everything off as a last resort.

It is definitely more risky. No different then flying a plane with many wireless controls (which we do today).

 

[Duncan62]

Putting in a basement sump, main tank is upstairs. How can I add a 30 gallon tank that is in the basement to the same system without putting the sump on the floor to allow gravity to power the out flow from the small tank to the sump? I want to have the sump at waist level for ease of maintenance. Has anyone done this? If using a pump or pumps, in and out would have to be identical right? Is this possible?

You certainly can. Feed the 30 with a siphon tube and a skimmer box. Place your pump in the 30. As the 30 pumps into the sump the level in the 30 lowers and the siphon compensates. If the power goes out the pump stops and the 30fills to the level of the sump. Power comes on and it all starts up again with no help from you. Almost no plumbing. I have large scrubber/refugium boxes on shelves behind my main tanks in thin configuration. It'll work easily. Good idea. Go for it.

 

[Greg Gdowski]

You certainly can. Feed the 30 with a siphon tube and a skimmer box. Place your pump in the 30. As the 30 pumps into the sump the level in the 30 lowers and the siphon compensates. If the power goes out the pump stops and the 30fills to the level of the sump. Power comes on and it all starts up again with no help from you. Almost no plumbing. I have large scrubber/refugium boxes on shelves behind my main tanks in thin configuration. It'll work easily. Good idea. Go for it.

Following -- sort of. What happens if you shut off the return pump to the upstairs tank and the level of the sump goes up. Does that now also balance out and drain into the second tank? That could be a lot of additional water (half of what normally drains from the display tank into the sump). That is what has always prevented me from doing this. The lowest tank holds all of the water drained when the main return shuts off. A picture of the siphon and skimmer box might help me on this.

 

[Duncan62]

Following -- sort of. What happens if you shut off the return pump to the upstairs tank and the level of the sump goes up. Does that now also balance out and drain into the second tank? That could be a lot of additional water (half of what normally drains from the display tank into the sump). That is what has always prevented me from doing this. The lowest tank holds all of the water drained when the main return shuts off.

 

[Duncan62]

Install back check valves for the upstairs tank. This should allow the sump to stay very close to the same level during feeding or power outages. I've helped do maintenance on a upstairs/basement system very similar to what you want. It can be done .

 

[Greg Gdowski]

I have check valves, but they are for fun. I fully expect them to leak, fail and require service. I guess if you are willing to rely on them that is fine, but if they fail you could have an unavoidable flood during a vacation (which is what would happen with my luck) if you don't build a buffer space in the lowest tank.

The other concern I had was that if it did drain into the lowest tank (and you had enough space to hold the water) -- the return to your main upstairs tank is typically a very high flow rate in comparison to what you might have going to that 30G. So your main return pump could drain your sump before the return from the 30G caught up.

That said, I get it now. The check valves are key and very important in this design. Like I said, I use them but I am always weary of them failing. On my latest tank, I bought the check valves that were easy to open up and clean. The ones on my 90G were impossible to clean if they leaked.

Thank you! A good solution with a small risk!

 

[Duncan62]

I have check valves, but they are for fun. I fully expect them to leak, fail and require service. I guess if you are willing to rely on them that is fine, but if they fail you could have an unavoidable flood during a vacation (which is what would happen with my luck) if you don't build a buffer space in the lowest tank.

The other concern I had was that if it did drain into the lowest tank (and you had enough space to hold the water) -- the return to your main upstairs tank is typically a very high flow rate in comparison to what you might have going to that 30G. So your main return pump could drain your sump before the return from the 30G caught up.

That said, I get it now. The check valves are key and very important in this design. Like I said, I use them but I am always weary of them failing. On my latest tank, I bought the check valves that were easy to open up and clean. The ones on my 90G were impossible to clean if they leaked.

Thank you! A good solution with a small risk!

A smaller separate pump will move water from lower tank to sump. Independent from the upper tank. The only thing the lower tank needs is flow into the sump. Good luck. I'm sure it will be a cool system.

 

[Duncan62]

A smaller separate pump will move water from lower tank to sump. Independent from the upper tank. The only thing the lower tank needs is flow into the sump. Good luck. I'm sure it will be a cool system.

P.S. get good back flow preventer. Post a pic when you do it.

 

[Balthazar]

As someone has mentioned already size the sump accordingly so that if or when power is lost the sump can hold the overflow water of both tanks.

 

[Duncan62]

As someone has mentioned already size the sump accordingly so that if or when power is lost the sump can hold the overflow water of both tanks.

No overflow from lower tank. It's like a canister filter. Water in, water out. The water level in the lower tank and sump level are almost constantly the same when in operation. Ive seen it work..