Carbon Dosing/Bio balls/ High NO3/PO4

[Kay 2024]

Hi Everyone,

I'd really appreciate answers to a couple of questions that I have please, if someone could explain things in a simple way, even better!

Can adding too much/over dosing products like Bacto balance/ Elimin-NP actually raise NO3 & PO4?

Can adding too many Bio balls/Blocks (Maxspect) actually keep NO3 high by ways of Nitrite fluctuations?

How can I help/stop Nitrite fluctuations & do they effect NO3 levels, if so how?

Given my questions - am currently experiencing high NO3 66.3 & PO4 0.17, I’ve been using TM BB & Elimin-NP, I know carbon dosing takes a while to get going but am getting nervous with my high numbers, so have been doing consecutive 60L WC to try and get a hold of things.

Tank - 300L - Bare bottom, been set up for 13 months, tank transfer so rock, coral, fish are years with me. Mainly LPS & Zoas, few Sps. Quite a large fish load.

Thank you in advance, your time is appreciated.

 

[unchainedcoot]

Hi Everyone,

I'd really appreciate answers to a couple of questions that I have please, if someone could explain things in a simple way, even better!

Can adding too much/over dosing products like Bacto balance/ Elimin-NP actually raise NO3 & PO4?

Can adding too many Bio balls/Blocks (Maxspect) actually keep NO3 high by ways of Nitrite fluctuations?

How can I help/stop Nitrite fluctuations & do they effect NO3 levels, if so how?

Given my questions - am currently experiencing high NO3 66.3 & PO4 0.17, I’ve been using TM BB & Elimin-NP, I know carbon dosing takes a while to get going but am getting nervous with my high numbers, so have been doing consecutive 60L WC to try and get a hold of things.

Tank - 300L - Bare bottom, been set up for 13 months, tank transfer so rock, coral, fish are years with me. Mainly LPS & Zoas, few Sps. Quite a large fish load.

Thank you in advance, your time is appreciated.

So I’m currently using NP BB. From what I’ve read of it and how I’ve been using it is to maintain desired nutrient levels so I’d put this product on the shelf temporarily. I’ve never used elimi-np (I have used Red Sea NO3-PO4 X) but my understanding is that it’s a form of carbon dosing so this is probably the one you want to be focused on.

How much are you currently dosing of each and how long have you been dosing? Have you been getting cloudy water at all?

 

[unchainedcoot]

Though reading there guidelines i might have steered you wrong with shelving the NP BB

 

[Kay 2024]

I've switched from BB to Elimin-NP as BB raised my PO4 & NO3 - as you stated it should balance things, however am now dosing the max recommended by TM - but its not putting a dent in it.

1.5mls = 300L tank
No cloudy water.

Haven't got any algae issues at present, thanks for your reply!

 

[unchainedcoot]

I've switched from BB to Elimin-NP as BB raised my PO4 & NO3 - as you stated it should balance things, however am now dosing the max recommended by TM - but its not putting a dent in it.

1.5mls = 300L tank
No cloudy water.

Haven't got any algae issues at present, thanks for your reply!

I know in general people seem to struggle getting nitrates down with carbon dosing. Seems to do a fabulous job with phosphates but nitrates seem delayed in their reduction to carbon dosing. There are some threads around here about experiments people have ran using different carbon sources (ethanol vs vinegar I believe) and how the nitrate reduction differs. TM also claims their carbon dosing uses longer chain polymers so where this would fall in regards to reduction rate I have no clue. I’ve reached out to TM tech support before and they’ve been fairly prompt with replies.

If you stick with the elimi-np and water changes just be careful you don’t bottom out the PO4

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Can adding too many Bio balls/Blocks (Maxspect) actually keep NO3 high by ways of Nitrite fluctuations?

I’m not sure what exactly the rationale for that is, but the answer is no.

There may be other reasons you do not want them and raising nitrate could be one of them. But it has nothing to do with nitrite fluctuations.

I’d suggest upping the organic dose.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I know in general people seem to struggle getting nitrates down with carbon dosing. Seems to do a fabulous job with phosphates but nitrates seem delayed in their reduction to carbon dosing.

I don’t agree with that. Most often, organic carbon dosing has a bigger effect on nitrate than phosphate for at least three well understood reasons.

1. Organism growth uses much more N than P.

2. Denitrification uses nitrate and not phosphate.

3. Phosphate is often propped up by release of phosphate from rock and sand when you try to lower it.

 

[unchainedcoot]

I don’t agree with that. Most often, organic carbon dosing has a bigger effect on nitrate than phosphate for at least three well understood reasons.

1. Organism growth uses much more N than P.

2. Denitrification uses nitrate and not phosphate.

3. Phosphate is often propped up by release of phosphate from rock and sand when you try to lower it.

My mistake. I obviously misread/misinterpreted the plots I saw

 

[Kay 2024]

I’m not sure what exactly the rationale for that is, but the answer is no.

There may be other reasons you do not want them and raising nitrate could be one of them. But it has nothing to do with nitrite fluctuations.

I’d suggest upping the organic dose.

Thank-you - it was suggested that Nitrite flucuations could be the reason for my PO4 & NO3 going up & not down as I had no idea of that, thought I'd ask so I do know, Am a bit worried about overdosing the Elimin -NP , am not going to increase by a massive amount, but where would you reccommed too much for this product?
really appreciate your time!

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Thank-you - it was suggested that Nitrite flucuations could be the reason for my PO4 & NO3 going up & not down as I had no idea of that, thought I'd ask so I do know, Am a bit worried about overdosing the Elimin -NP , am not going to increase by a massive amount, but where would you reccommed too much for this product?
really appreciate your time!

The presence of nitrite can result in a false high reading for nitrate with a nitrate test kit. Perhaps that was the root of the statements you saw.

I’m not a fan of dosing unknown chemicals, like elimi NP, but I doubt more is a concern.

 

[Kay 2024]

The presence of nitrite can result in a false high reading for nitrate with a nitrate test kit. Perhaps that was the root of the statements you saw.

I’m not a fan of dosing unknown chemicals, like elimi NP, but I doubt more is a concern.

Thanks - I understand what was meant now.
If you wouldn't mind explaining pls, why would Nitrite be showing up, probably me being a bit dumb, but I thought once the tank was cycled that took care of it? also how do I prevent this from happening?
Just out of curiosity - what would your go to for carbon dosing & why ? I bought into the TM carbon products because of how it was described/worked in the marketing.

Thanks for your help!

 

[GARRIGA]

I don’t agree with that. Most often, organic carbon dosing has a bigger effect on nitrate than phosphate for at least three well understood reasons.

1. Organism growth uses much more N than P.

2. Denitrification uses nitrate and not phosphate.

3. Phosphate is often propped up by release of phosphate from rock and sand when you try to lower it.

Wouldn't the bacteria performing the denitrification not use phosphates or is that covered by number 1?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Thanks - I understand what was meant now.
If you wouldn't mind explaining pls, why would Nitrite be showing up, probably me being a bit dumb, but I thought once the tank was cycled that took care of it? also how do I prevent this from happening?
Just out of curiosity - what would your go to for carbon dosing & why ? I bought into the TM carbon products because of how it was described/worked in the marketing.

Thanks for your help!

I preferred vinegar dosing in my system as it seemed to cause less cyano then vodka, but that may vary tank to tank. Either or both is fine, IMO.

There is always going to be some nitrite, but usually not enough to be a problem with nitrate testing. But during cycling or perhaps scenarios like stirring up a sand bed, it might be more significant.

I mention it not because I think it has anything to do with nitrate measurement in an operating tank, but because it may be where the misleading info about nitrite "fluctuations" causing nitrate originally came from.

 

[Pod_01]

Can adding too many Bio balls/Blocks (Maxspect) actually keep NO3 high by ways of Nitrite fluctuations?

FWIW, once I removed all of my bio blocks etc… my NO3 went down after the removal.

I believe there is such a thing as too much of bio media… but that is just me.
I run 250L system and my sump only has skimmer and one piece of live rock that I keep just in case I need to set up a tank or re-scape.

Good luck,

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Wouldn't the bacteria performing the denitrification not use phosphates or is that covered by number 1?

The denitrification process itself consumes no phosphate. Yes, if denitrifying bacteria are also growing in numbers, phosphate is consumed to build tissue.

But overall these bacteria will use much more nitrate than ordinary aerobic bacteria because they are using nitrate both to get energy from denitrification and to build tissue.

 

[GARRIGA]

FWIW, once I removed all of my bio blocks etc… my NO3 went down after the removal.

I believe there is such a thing as too much of bio media… but that is just me.
I run 250L system and my sump only has skimmer and one piece of live rock that I keep just in case I need to set up a tank or re-scape.

Good luck,

Reason why Berlin method became popular being Wet Dry was a nitrate factory as are all media based nitrification process. I'm assuming removal of the media meant you either relied more on skimming and/or corals to remove that which would have decomposed into nitrates.

 

[Pod_01]

Reason why Berlin method became popular being Wet Dry was a nitrate factory as are all media based nitrification process. I'm assuming removal of the media meant you either relied more on skimming and/or corals to remove that which would have decomposed into nitrates.

Not really sure, but I do love for the floating bits to spend as much time in water column as possible.

I do believe the corals are the main filtration in reef tank, other methods just assist. I run skimmer and some GAC in a bag.

 

[GARRIGA]

Not really sure, but I do love for the floating bits to spend as much time in water column as possible.

I do believe the corals are the main filtration in reef tank, other methods just assist. I run skimmer and some GAC in a bag.

I'm sure one could run a reef tank with nothing more than corals and flow assuming some gas exchange existed but skimmers are great at removing that which would have become nutrients such as ammonia that corals would use. So would Purigen.

My point being that media will rob that ammonia from the corals and convert it to nitrates. Problem for me being I'll be starting with nubs that likely won't make a dent on ammonia unless I monitored that closely by reducing input which I won't be doing. In the end, corals utilize nitrates too by down converting them to ammonia as I understand the science and what is seen with most FW plants. Why many with mature tanks often report struggling to keep nitrates showing.

 

[Kay 2024]

FWIW, once I removed all of my bio blocks etc… my NO3 went down after the removal.

I believe there is such a thing as too much of bio media… but that is just me.
I run 250L system and my sump only has skimmer and one piece of live rock that I keep just in case I need to set up a tank or re-scape.

Good luck,

I have got quite a lot of blocks & bio balls in my sump - in my old 350L I bottomed out my PO4 and ended up with Dinos, it was mainly on the sand bed, although it wasn't a deep bed. I was plagued for months with that brown horror, it the end I siphoned the sand out and probably a bit of luck and fortune it never came back, hence the extra stuff in the sump. Thanks for your time!

 

[Dan_P]

How can I help/stop Nitrite fluctuations & do they effect NO3 levels, if so how?

There shouldn’t be nitrite present, though no big deal except they will interfere with the nitrate test, increasing the nitrate measured by the test.