Carbon source for effective phosphate reduction

[Jimbo327]

Following along. Would be interesting to see results once GFO and vinegar dosing goes offline.

 

[djkms]

Following along. Would be interesting to see results once GFO and vinegar dosing goes offline.

Sorry, I was not able to edit my previous posts - vinegar was pulled offline on Saturday 03/15 and GFO pulled offline today.

I will test again on Saturday when I get back in town. Looking to test on Saturday's and Wednesday's for the next month or 2 then every Saturday after once everything is evened out.

 

[rishma]

Trying to get off vinegar. I vinegar dosed in my previous 210 and it just slimed up everything. It was starting to do the same in my 600. Adding ammonia would mean I would just have to add more vinegar.

I remember getting slime when using vinegar.

I am really curious if you will find that a PG carbon source by itself works better on phosphate than vinegar.

I know that NP Bacto Balance does a better job with phosphate than vinegar did. I have assumed it was because it includes additional nitrogen. But since ElimNP helped you with phosphate and it does not include any nitrogen source, you could be on to something. If you come to that conclusion I think it will surprise some people.

 

[magikfly]

I use this https://www.oceanartstore.nl/products/reef-fuel. Very effective and highly concentrated. Not sure about availability in the US

 

[Big E]

I have been looking at alternatives for years and no bacterial products have worked long term...........GFO is till my go to. I've tried vinegar, NOPOX, MB7, MB clean, Bacto balance. None have worked long term or in any sort of balanced form.

I know Zeo is effective but it strips everything out to starvation.

I haven't tried this yet but red gracilaria algae has a 50/50 consumption rate of No3 & P04. You may want to try an algae filter with only that algae in it.

My current solution is to have a fish load that matches the consumption of my corals and algae in the display. I only run a skimmer.

With the current popularity of new bacterial products I think eventually they will find a bacterial strain that only eats phosphate or a combo that eats both nutrients at the same level. I would only go down this road if the company is completely transparent and names the strains. I'm done with false claims and proprietary products of any kind.

 

[rishma]

I have been looking at alternatives for years and no bacterial products have worked long term...........GFO is till my go to. I've tried vinegar, NOPOX, MB7, MB clean, Bacto balance. None have worked long term or in any sort of balanced form.

I know Zeo is effective but it strips everything out to starvation.

I haven't tried this yet but red gracilaria algae has a 50/50 consumption rate of No3 & P04. You may want to try an algae filter with only that algae in it.

My current solution is to have a fish load that matches the consumption of my corals and algae in the display. I only run a skimmer.

With the current popularity of new bacterial products I think eventually they will find a bacterial strain that only eats phosphate or a combo that eats both nutrients at the same level. I would only go down this road if the company is completely transparent and names the strains. I'm done with false claims and proprietary products of any kind.

Interesting experience. What do you consider long term? I’ve been using bacto balance for 2+ years (I don’t recall exactly) and seems ok so far. It’s probably the longest continuous duration I’ve used carbon dosing. Prior attempts with other carbon sources had starts and stops as I bottomed out nutrients or had other issues.

 

[chema]

With the current popularity of new bacterial products I think eventually they will find a bacterial strain that only eats phosphate or a combo that eats both nutrients at the same level. I would only go down this road if the company is completely transparent and names the strains. I'm done with false claims and proprietary products of any kind.

I'm afraid that is very unlikely. Assimilation pathways are regulated according to the needs in all living organisms. The need for N is far higher than the need for phosphorus in bacteria.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

you come to that conclusion I think it will surprise some people.

It will surprise me if it is generally true, yes. I don’t see much rationale for the carbon source to generally matter for P consumption. :)

 

[backbayreef]

I would be very surprised (and interested) if carbon-dosing will reduce PO4. This is what I’ve been doing on my 450gal with 25 medium/large fish and it’s effortless to control N&P. I dose 20mls/day of vodka from Costco and my NO3 is hovering around 30. It’s on a Versa and I don’t touch anything until I run out.

For PO4 control, I just need 180 drops of PhosphateRx (LC-based) dosed into skimmer neck, but spread it across 3 days. I’m good for at least 2-3 months and keep PO4 around 0.12. I could go lower but nothing is really wrong so why bother. And yes, I feed heavily.

EDIT: my next project is to put LC (lower concentration) on a doser so never have to manually count drops. That should give me a consistent reduction of PO4 while keep things stable throughout.

Love to see how this experiment turns out.

 

[rishma]

It will surprise me if it is generally true, yes. I don’t see much rationale for the carbon source to generally matter for P consumption. :)

I could have said “I think it will surprise Randy” :)

I don’t know what the rationale would be but I also don’t know a lot about bacteria. I think it’s true that different carbon sources seem to drive different bacteria, but I don’t know that I’ve seen anything to suggest different bacteria consume significantly different amounts of phosphate in relation to nitrate.

I am pretty confident that dosing ammonia/nitrate and a carbon source pushes down phosphate. I’ve experienced that multiple times over the years, most recently with ammonia.

 

[Big E]

Interesting experience. What do you consider long term? I’ve been using bacto balance for 2+ years (I don’t recall exactly) and seems ok so far. It’s probably the longest continuous duration I’ve used carbon dosing. Prior attempts with other carbon sources had starts and stops as I bottomed out nutrient

One to two years on everything I have listed.........that's why I'm done with them. Most the the time the P04 would start to creep up and dosing more would just cause a nitrate depletion to zero.

It took me about 6 months with Bacto balance before I started to see P04 creep up continuously without me having to use GFO.

The other problem was some acros would die or go into hibernation near or after 12 months. I can't say 100% that there was a firm cause/effect relationship at that time due to carbon dosing, bacteria or a combo. I did all of this testing on two different acro tanks over a 10 year period. ICP tests were always fine.

I decided that was it for me...........some of my theories are that straight carbon dosing may be advantageous to some bad bacteria and or the commercial bacteria was contaminated or just became detrimental in other ways.

My current main system has been running for two years with no dosing other than Bionic. I had to add some nitrate or P04 due to low fish load occasionally but that's about it. This system is thriving with water changes in the 10-15% range a week.

I'm just relating my experience and have no intent to argue about specific causes, ineffectiveness, ect.
It's back to the old adage for me if you don't know what's in it don't use it.

 

[Moe K]

I love this test and interested to see if you crack some code. I have flipped flopped between nopox and elimi-np the last few years and honestly at this point I can not say I see a difference in effectiveness between either although they both do help keep my nitrate and po4 relatively under control. I too will still creep up in Po4 though.

At one point I went over the recommended dose of elimin-np around 3x the max. It didn't do much but cause weird bacterial growth on equipment and slime. This lead me to accept there is a limit to what is reasonable and anything above that is not necessarily beneficial to the tank or coral.

Now I have just looped around to the thought that nothing beats a big whopping chamber of chaeto for nitrate AND po4 reduction. It also helps outcompete other nuisance issues and is just an all around work horse for tank nutrients. It's also easier to maintain, just snip some off and throw it in the back yard when its time. Now I just dose a small amount of elimi-np just to keep the carbon balance for the coral. At a certain point of chaeto growth its heavy in and heavy out which is what I want.

Will continue to follow. Great experiment.

 

[rishma]

One to two years on everything I have listed.........that's why I'm done with them. Most the the time the P04 would start to creep up and dosing more would just cause a nitrate depletion to zero.

It took me about 6 months with Bacto balance before I started to see P04 creep up continuously without me having to use GFO.

The other problem was some acros would die or go into hibernation near or after 12 months. I can't say 100% that there was a firm cause/effect relationship at that time due to carbon dosing, bacteria or a combo. I did all of this testing on two different acro tanks over a 10 year period. ICP tests were always fine.

I decided that was it for me...........some of my theories are that straight carbon dosing may be advantageous to some bad bacteria and or the commercial bacteria was contaminated or just became detrimental in other ways.

My current main system has been running for two years with no dosing other than Bionic. I had to add some nitrate or P04 due to low fish load occasionally but that's about it. This system is thriving with water changes in the 10-15% range a week.

I'm just relating my experience and have no intent to argue about specific causes, ineffectiveness, ect.
It's back to the old adage for me if you don't know what's in it don't use it.

Thanks! It would be interesting to see a poll of how long people stick with carbon dosing.

You mentioned commercial bacteria. I don’t use any, because I don’t trust it, and I figure I paid good money for the biome on my live rock so I don’t want to mess with it.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Thanks! It would be interesting to see a poll of how long people stick with it

I used vinegar dosing from the time I started it for a few years until I took the tank down. I only intend to use it on my new tank if nutrients exceeds
my new higher target levels. I’m hoping that macroalgae in the main tank and in a refugium, plus other consumers keeps it in reasonable control.

You mentioned commercial bacteria. I don’t use any, because I don’t trust it, and I figure I paid good money for the biome on my live rock so I don’t want to mess with it.

I’m not going to use any either. Same reason. My refugium setup has a bunch of live macro from the local ocean, plus a little gracilaria I got from a local reefer. I expect these and the water and bit of sand they came with will seed more natural bacteria. Right now I’m feeding the macro on ammonia, phosphate, iron, and manganese. I hope it lives, but the ocean stuff may be tricky. But something in the water is clearly photosynthesizing due to the bubbles during the light cycle. I hope it’s not just diatoms growing on the macro and elsewhere since I used tap water with a ton of silicate, but I don’t really see any significant amount growing in the sides of the Brute can or on the rubble on the bottom.

The tank itself will get real ocean live rock and sand in early April. Still waiting on a couple of details to start the build thread, but hope to very soon. That should get the tank biome off to a good start. :)

 

[rishma]

I used vinegar dosing from the time I started it for a few years until I took the tank down. I only intend to use it on my new tank if nutrients exceeds
my new higher target levels. I’m hoping that macroalgae in the main tank and in a refugium, plus other consumers keeps it in reasonable control.



I’m not going to use any either. Same reason. My refugium setup has a bunch of live macro from the local ocean, plus a little gracilaria I got from a local reefer. I expect these and the water and bit of sand they came with will seed more natural bacteria. Right now I’m feeding the macro on ammonia, phosphate, iron, and manganese. I hope it lives, but the ocean stuff may be tricky. But something in the water is clearly photosynthesizing due to the bubbles during the light cycle. I hope it’s not just diatoms growing on the macro and elsewhere since I used tap water with a ton of silicate, but I don’t really see any significant amount growing in the sides of the Brute can or on the rubble on the bottom.

The tank itself will get real ocean live rock and sand in early April. Still waiting on a couple of details to start the build thread, but hope to very soon. That should get the tank biome off to a good start. :)

Getting close!! I like the strategy. I really enjoy macro algae and I’m sure I’ll have a refugium again, but just for enjoyment. Maybe even a display. I find using it for nutrient control required more frequent care/maintenance than I can accommodate. My lifestyle is better suited to nutrient management via dosing pumps that I can control from the other side of the world.

I think I’ve reached a point that I am carbon dosing and probably don’t need to, but I keep doing it. I am carbon dosing and dosing P and N sources. I’ve found a good balance in the tension. Maybe the bacteria is proving food to the corals too!

 

[djkms]

3/22/2025 - 7ml PG per day
NO3 7.8ppm
PO4 .12 (40ppb phosphorous)

• No GFO since last test
• 125ml ammonia bicarb = .5ppm NO3 daily

Notes: Even though this appears to be the break even point there were inconsistencies this week. I was out of town Tuesday through Friday. I was not able to feed 2 sheets of Nori per day nor was I able to feed 7 cubes of frozen split between 2 feedings per day either. However I did have my automatic feeder (various types of pellets) pick up 2 more feedings per day during the time I usually feed frozen. I also had a Bimac Anthias die while I was gone and the clean up crew took care of a lot of it but I did find the remains of the body when I got back. So maybe with a death and less feeding it was still a break even this week?

Since my tank is an Acropora dominant system I think I want to bring my PO4 down slightly more to .07-.08. Yes I know I have been reading Randy's thread on Nutrient Target levels and there seems to be a more widely acceptable range of PO4 this day in age but I have always run my SPS systems under .1 PO4. I swear I remember reading somewhere that PO4 over .1 starts to inhibit calcification. Anyways for my peace of mind on how I usually run SPS systems I am going to bring my PO4 down slightly below .1 and will increase PG to 9ml per day and will retest on Wednesday. Once I get nutrients reading consistently for a couple weeks I will swap out the ammonia for sodium nitrate to see just how much ammonia dosing is removing PO4 as well.

 

[rishma]

I will swap out the ammonia for sodium nitrate to see just how much ammonia dosing is removing PO4 as well.

looking forward to this part because I’m curious. Definitely made a difference in my tank.

Sorry you lost your anthias.

 

[Koty]

TM sells 5-liter "jugs" of Elimi NP and NP Bacto-balance at a much cheaper price compared to the smaller ones.

 

[alindell]

I've used bacteria balance for a couple weeks now. My acros seem to have colored up a little more

 

[Koty]

My tank has a heavy bio-load of corals and fish. For the last 3 years, I have been heavily using TM carbon dosing [Elimi NP (2X the recommended dose) and Reef Actif] combined with a Cheato refuge. My nitrates are around 0 even though I dose Amino Acids (TM). However, my phosphates are creeping up nowadays to above the limit of the Hanna ULR PO4 checker.
Now I will try to drain it with a GFO reactor. I do not worry about fast PO4 reduction as I assume that there is a lot of substrate-bound phosphate.