Cheato not growing / reducing in size with high nutrients

[NanoRookie]

Hi all,

Im having issues with my AIO refugium. I have an intank media basket with cheato and a innovative marine cheato grow light on the back. My nitrates are 25-30 and phosphates are .5 (went down to feeding once a day and bought my own rodi when i noticed this).

I have brown film or slime in the walls of the basket and i beleive in the glass where the light should hit my cheato, would that be causing my cheato to be reducing in size/ reducing the light my cheato is takin in? I run it 12 hours oposed to my tank lights

Im also dosing cheato grow.

 

[Reefahholic]

Hi all,

Im having issues with my AIO refugium. I have an intank media basket with cheato and a innovative marine cheato grow light on the back. My nitrates are 25-30 and phosphates are .5 (went down to feeding once a day and bought my own rodi when i noticed this).

I have brown film or slime in the walls of the basket and i beleive in the glass where the light should hit my cheato, would that be causing my cheato to be reducing in size/ reducing the light my cheato is takin in? I run it 12 hours oposed to my tank lights

Im also dosing cheato grow.

Nitrates of 25-30 are on the high side. What is your PO4?

I'm assuming Cheato Grow has Iron in it. If not, dose a little bit of iron according to your system volume.

 

[Cunning_plan]

Are you adding anything to try and stop the algae such as vibrant?

 

[NanoRookie]

Are you adding anything to try and stop the algae such as vibrant?

Yea dosing vibrant

Phosphate =.5

 

[92Miata]

Yea dosing vibrant

Phosphate =.5

Vibrant is an algecide. It's killing your chaeto.

 

[Ulm_nano_diybudgetreef]

Yea dosing vibrant

Phosphate =.5

I've read mixed reviews on vibrant affecting chaeto. Unfortunately no opinion as I havent used it.

I'm in the same boat as you, with same nutrient levels. Just setup a fuge and adding chaeto tomorrow. Only difference is I've got diatoms, no slime.

Hope someone can help answer you.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Vibrant is an algecide. It's killing your chaeto.

I've seen people make this claim, but never seen any details or evidence.

What do you believe it is?

 

[92Miata]

I've seen people make this claim, but never seen any details or evidence.

What do you believe it is?

No idea. I just know that there's no bacteria in the bottle, it's labeled as killing algae, and it doesn't behave like it's just a carbon source.


I believe @jda said his club did a chemical assay of it - but he's been vague as to what specifically they found.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

No idea. I just know that there's no bacteria in the bottle, it's labeled as killing algae, and it doesn't behave like it's just a carbon source.


I believe @jda said his club did a chemical assay of it - but he's been vague as to what specifically they found.

I've seen other threads claiming no bacteria in other products, and folks like Tim Hovanec pointed out flaws in the way folks were looking for bacteria, so while I do not know what is in either Vibrant or other bacteria products, I am skeptical of tests done on them making claims how they work, especially since I have never seen the experiments actually done to make this claim for Vibrant.

 

[92Miata]

I've seen other threads claiming no bacteria in other products, and folks like Tim Hovanec pointed out flaws in the way folks were looking for bacteria, so while I do not know what is in either Vibrant or other bacteria products, I am skeptical of tests done on them making claims how they work, especially since I have never seen the experiments actually done to make this claim for Vibrant.

Fair enough.

I'm very skeptical of manufacturers of proprietary products in industries that are almost entirely unregulated. I see no reason to take their claims at face value when the evidence I do have is contradictory.

 

[NanoRookie]

So sorry for the abrupt change, the film algae in the glass/ intank basket might not be blocking too much light from the cheato for it to grow?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Fair enough.

I'm very skeptical of manufacturers of proprietary products in industries that are almost entirely unregulated. I see no reason to take their claims at face value when the evidence I do have is contradictory.

That's certainly reasonable. There are tons of reef products that do not work as claimed, and a few that are intentionally misleading. I've just not seen any contradictory evidence of what is in Vibrant.

 

[Cunning_plan]

I've seen people make this claim, but never seen any details or evidence.

What do you believe it is?

I've struggled to grow cheato when I was dosing to remove an outbreak and have seen a fair few similar posts. That said, the plural of anecdote is certainly not evidence and in tanks where people are heavily dosing vibrant there is likely to be other problems abound.

 

[jda]

Chaeto grows better in lower levels of N and P... the higher they get, the slower it grows. This is just from my own experiences over a few decades. It also needs water changes or dosages of iron - somehow, it needs iron supplemented since it can use it up and stop growing. Chaeto will die if you use vibrant... it kills all kinds of macro algae, the ones that you like and the ones that you do not - just too many people have had it happen. You also have to prune your chaeto for faster growth - a tight ball needs culled to about half and loosened back up for optimum growth.

A man in our club owns a forensic lab. He did the assay on the Vibrant. I believe him. Even without this, look at the product... supposed to be bacterial, but no shelf life like they can live in a bottle in perpetuity. The bacteria is supposed to not be able to multiply in our tank, so you have to keep adding it in increments forever. The bacteria eats macro algae and nothing else. When you ask UWC why there is no bacteria in the bottle under a microscope examination, they tell you that it has to culture in our tanks to get up to levels to be able to see. Which is it? is there a bunch in the bottle that does not multiply in our tanks, or does it need to multiply? The product is mostly organic carbon... not sure which bacterial strains that eat algae can live in this stuff indefinitely. The dosing instructions work just like other algaecides like AlgaeFix with the same effect on clean up crew - urchins and some snails die that eat algae in tanks treated with the stuff. None of this adds up to a bacterial supplement alone. I don't care what is in it - I just wish that they would not lie about. He also did an assay on their AEFW remedy and they lied about what is in that too.

 

[UWC]

I'm not going to go back and forth with you on this as I already have once before, but I will say you are spreading a lot of false information and I have seen you do it multiple times across the forum.

There is a shelf life, three years. The bacteria are processed by flash freezing and are dormant. They are not live bacteria and because of the way they are processed for bottling, they bottles can have a long shelf life. They are processed this way to be able to handle extreme high and low temperatures throughout the year.

It does not multiply in our tanks and does need to be added in increments, this is standard for many bacterial products ( AF, Probidio, Zeovit, Brightwells, Red Sea, Etc. just to name a few ).

You can find it under a microscope, You just need the right gear. This is not some brown gunky type, stinky bacteria that most people think of when they they think of bottled bacteria. I never said anything to you about culturing in our tanks, what I did say to you was, culture the bacteria and see what you end up with. This will give you a better idea of what bacteria strains are present. A few people have studied Vibrant pretty extensively and there are videos on YouTube showing the cultures, etc. Jason2459 Did some pretty extensive studies with it here on R2R in his biology thread with videos, etc. as well.

As for the dosing instructions, 1ml times x amount whether it be 10 gallons or 25 gallons is pretty much the gold standard for aquarium additives and dosages. As for snails and urchins dieing, that is just not true from Vibrant. What can cause snails and urchins to die are toxic strains of dino die off or the release of heavy metals, toxins, etc. being released into the water as the algaes are being consumed. This is like a one and ten thousand usage case, far from common.

I would love to see these essays if you would be so kind to put me into touch with this gentlemen

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I've struggled to grow cheato when I was dosing to remove an outbreak and have seen a fair few similar posts. That said, the plural of anecdote is certainly not evidence and in tanks where people are heavily dosing vibrant there is likely to be other problems abound.

Why does having chaeto hard to grow mean the dosed product must contain an algaecide?

There are many ways chaeto growth might be reduced that is not from an algecide.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Chaeto grows better in lower levels of N and P... the higher they get, the slower it grows. This is just from my own experiences over a few decades. It also needs water changes or dosages of iron - somehow, it needs iron supplemented since it can use it up and stop growing.

If true, I do not believe that is a direct result of the nutrients. How do you think that works? Unless they rise to the level of being toxic, there's no mechanism for algae to grow more slowly with elevated nutrients, and there is, as far as I know, no examples of this sort of thing in the scientific literature.

What makes lots of sense if your claim is true is that the higher nutrients allow a less efficient organisms to outcompete the chaeto for something else, such as iron, manganese, or a host of other mandatory trace element, or space, light, etc.