Check values stammering. Sump overflow. UGENT!!

[Miami Reef]

I closed my return pumps to look for something in my rockwork and I noticed my sump was overflowing!!!

Thank goodness I decided to close my return pumps today because imagine if my returns went out while I was away!!!

I use 2 return pumps, and they both were stammering HARD when I closed them! They both have check values that were vibrating hard. The water seems to be coming out from the return pumps because if I open the check valve to allow air in and then close the retighten it, the stammering and flooding stops.


I don’t know how to explain it well, but someone please tell me what’s going on. I can’t have my sump and tank overflow like this. I went on a ladder and notice my whole floor was getting soaked FAST.

Here are my return pumps with the check valves.




I’ve had these check valves for 2 years. They stammered before when I closed them, but it was never this hard nor has it flooded like this. I need a solution asap because if my tank decides to power out it will flood on the floor.

 

[a.t.t.r]

Correctly size your sump and outlet height.

Check valves DO NOT WORK in saltwater tanks Eventually something will always grow on the surface and prevent a perfect seal. If your return lines are deep under the surface and come from a bottom bulkhead they should be a closed loop system. If they break the water surface at all drill a small siphon break into them.

Your video however looks like a water hammer effect where it is slamming shut and the shockwave travels up the pipe pulling the valve back open with it.

 

[Miami Reef]

Your video however looks like a water hammer effect where it is slamming shut and the shockwave travels up the pipe pulling the valve back open with it.

Yes. This is what’s happening. What is causing this? Do you think the water can flood into the sump if this happens?

I know checkvalves don’t work. I paid for a company to build this tank and i explicitly told them I do NOT want to rely on check valves, but they told me that’s the only way they can do it and I was young and naive.

That’s one of my regrets. But I need to know will cleaning the check valves fix this issue, or is there something else that also needs to be fixed?

 

[EeyoreIsMySpiritAnimal]

I would drill a siphon break into your return line (s) like attr said.

 

[Miami Reef]

I cleaned the check values and they stammer until the water level in the sump reaches a point and then stops. So the problem was solved in that aspect.

However, I don’t know if drilling a hole on the return line would help:

1) I don’t know if the sump will be able to hold all the water from the UV, return lines,

2) If the hole is drilled above the water line, it will cause microbubbles and air to enter the tank

3) if the hole is drilled under the water, coralline algae will easily grow to cover the hole

I will ask the mods to remove the emergency tag.

 

[EeyoreIsMySpiritAnimal]

3) if the hole is drilled under the water, coralline algae will easily grow to cover the hole

That's why you clean it out with a toothpick every once in a while

 

[Jmp998]

I cleaned the check values and they stammer until the water level in the sump reaches a point and then stops. So the problem was solved in that aspect.

However, I don’t know if drilling a hole on the return line would help:

1) I don’t know if the sump will be able to hold all the water from the UV, return lines,

2) If the hole is drilled above the water line, it will cause microbubbles and air to enter the tank

3) if the hole is drilled under the water, coralline algae will easily grow to cover the hole

I will ask the mods to remove the emergency tag.

I had a hole in my return line on a previous tank to prevent back siphoning-it was on the portion of the piping that was in the overflow compartment so no light and no algae growth. If your returns run through the overflow chamber that is where you want to put the siphon break I think.

 

[EeyoreIsMySpiritAnimal]

I had a hole in my return line on a previous tank to prevent back siphoning-it was on the portion of the piping that was in the overflow compartment so no light and no algae growth. If your returns run through the overflow chamber that is where you want to put the siphon break I think.

Mine is drilled on the underside of the loc-line segment that's just barely under water. That way, as soon as the water level in the tank drops, it starts sucking air. Makes an annoying slurping sound for about 5-10 seconds but it gets the job done

 

[Big E]

Mine is drilled on the underside of the loc-line segment that's just barely under water. That way, as soon as the water level in the tank drops, it starts sucking air. Makes an annoying slurping sound for about 5-10 seconds but it gets the job done

Yes, I've been doing it this way for over 30 years and it's never failed.

I always check them but I've never seen one get plugged up.

 

[REEFRIED!]

Won’t the tank only drain until water is below the weir and return outlets? You should have plenty of available space in sump for this?

 

[Miami Reef]

Mine is drilled on the underside of the loc-line segment that's just barely under water. That way, as soon as the water level in the tank drops, it starts sucking air. Makes an annoying slurping sound for about 5-10 seconds but it gets the job done

Thank you. I’ll do this tonight after work, and I’ll report back. I really appreciate all your help, guys!

 

[mfinn]

As previously mentioned the hole in the return line just under the waters surface does work as advertised.
It does add one more step in routine maintenance, but you say what could possibly happen if you weren't home during a power outage.
Also if you raise the outlet ( nozzle, flare, etc) of the return lines higher in the tank less water will back flow through the pumps. This may change up your intended flow direction, but experiment and find a happy medium.

 

[Dburr1014]

Won’t the tank only drain until water is below the weir and return outlets? You should have plenty of available space in sump for this?

Yes but that seems to be the problem. Sump to small to hold until the syphone break.
I will always have syphone breaks for redundancy.
OP, if your worried about coraline or bubbles, drill them at about 4 o'clock.
They stay underwater but can still see them.

 

[mfinn]

OP, if your worried about coraline or bubbles, drill them at about 4 o'clock.
They stay underwater but can still see them.

I did this on my smaller tank and when I look at the top of the water I can see flow coming from that direction ( from the siphon break hole) and it tells me it's still working.
It's not enough to lower the flow rate, but enough to see current.

 

[a.t.t.r]

Yes. This is what’s happening. What is causing this? Do you think the water can flood into the sump if this happens?

I know checkvalves don’t work. I paid for a company to build this tank and i explicitly told them I do NOT want to rely on check valves, but they told me that’s the only way they can do it and I was young and naive.

That’s one of my regrets. But I need to know will cleaning the check valves fix this issue, or is there something else that also needs to be fixed?

Most likely not. It is a flow rate issue. It is siphoning too fast and there is nothing you can do about it besides permanently restrict the flow or change the shape and design of the plumbing. A small siphon break WILL help even the water hammer effect as the air that gets sucked in (this hole should be right at the waterline if not above it. ) it will both slow the rate of water AND act as something that can be compressed to reduce the shockwave allowing the valve to close. After that the remaining air should kill the siphon. I want more pictures of your plumbing and how it goes back into the tank etc.

 

[REEFRIED!]

Yes but that seems to be the problem. Sump to small to hold until the syphone break.
I will always have syphone breaks for redundancy.
OP, if your worried about coraline or bubbles, drill them at about 4 o'clock.
They stay underwater but can still see them.

Doesn’t make any sense. Not allowing enough room in the sump for tank drain during power off is something you just cannot do. It is basically the first rule when using a sump.

My sump, display, and plumbing all eventually grow those little white hard nodules that look like sand, or like large granules of salt. Even if a few of those grew on the check valve flapper it would not close or seal properly and eventually all water would back flow until lower than the weir teeth and or return outlets.

 

[edd59]

move the returns just below the running water line. mine arent drilled and i have no problem. only raises the sump level about 5-10 gal [40 breeder]. just make sure when you do maintenance you dont knock them deeper.

 

[Dburr1014]

Doesn’t make any sense. Not allowing enough room in the sump for tank drain during power off is something you just cannot do. It is basically the first rule when using a sump.

My sump, display, and plumbing all eventually grow those little white hard nodules that look like sand, or like large granules of salt. Even if a few of those grew on the check valve flapper it would not close or seal properly and eventually all water would back flow until lower than the weir teeth and or return outlets.

This is the reason for the syphone breaks.

 

[REEFRIED!]

This is the reason for the syphone breaks.

I understand how a siphon break works. Either way you need to have available space in the sump to hold the water that back flows until you hit the siphon break. Not having the proper amount of room in the sump to accommodate power loss is not viable long term. Or even short term

 

[Miami Reef]

I drilled the holes in the loc lines. One of the check valves are still stammering even when I lift the entire loc line out of the water. I think it’s because the check valve isn’t allowing all the water in the UV to flow back into the sump, right?

I want to remove the check valves to see if my sump can hold the extra water from the UV system.

Do you think buying 2 more check valves and removing the flappers in my current check valves would be a good idea?

I think my sump can hold the water without the check valves, but I think it’s pushing it pretty close to the surface of the sump. I’d have to test it.