CoralB
5000 Club Member
That is good to know !!! Thank you for sharing that bit of info .
Chemiclean...am I the only one?
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Lavey29
10K Club member
I used it in my LPS and softy tank with no negative effects to any corals.
Keep posting pictures monthly with updates and Aquabiomics 16S DNA results. It'll be interesting to see how long it takes for you to establish a superstrain that takes over and the microbial processes in your system are all messed up.
I ran the ultralife red slime remover reluctantly on my 120 about 2 months ago. Have not seen any cyano since plus no water change required.
I got cyano after I weaned my tank off carbon dosing.
The only reason I did not use chemiclean is the large water change thats required.
Tank is doing very well since the treatment.
I got cyano after I weaned my tank off carbon dosing.
The only reason I did not use chemiclean is the large water change thats required.
Tank is doing very well since the treatment.
Emerson
Active Member
The two pictures are actually taken just a few minutes apart, one with a filter and the blue one without, after treating with Chemiclean.
CoralB
5000 Club Member
How often do you plan on dosing chemiclean ?
Hello...My name is Emerson, and I use Chemiclean... Not only that, I think I might start using it on a six month schedule, just because I want to! There, I said it! Man does that feel good to get that off my chest!
Seriously, am I the only one that reluctantly uses Chemiclean to get rid of some nuisance cyano, dyno, funky whatever sludge, and then I wonder why I don't just make it a "once in a while" part of my Display Tank maintenance? I don't have filth and muck overrunning my tank, but what's there certainly takes away from my enjoyment.
I've kept various reef tanks for over 20 years. My current 90 gal mixed reef DT is coming up on five years old. This has by far been my most difficult build i getting to maturity, in part (I think) because I started with completely dead BRS Pukani dry rock. Now, two years removed from previous battles (hair algae, serious cyano, dinos that almost made me take the tank down), I finally feel like the tank is mature. I actually expect 90-95% of the things I might add to live and thrive and feel confident that if I drop $100 on a coral at my LFS or trade show, I'll still have something to show for it in a year or more. I have reef-nerd level equipment and monitors, dose 2-part BRS/Tropic Marin hybrid solution, and have finally dialed in my LED/T5 Hybrid lights. I have seven fish, two shrimp, a clam, and SPS, LPS, and soft corals. I feed adequately with a mix of pellets and frozen w/ Selcon. My water parameters are just about right where I want them (Temp ~78-79 deg, Ph 8.1-8.3, Alk 8.0-8.5, Ca 440, Mg 1550, NO3 1-3 ppm, PO4 .01-.03 ppm), tested daily/weekly/monthly as appropriate as well as ICP every six to nine months. My Mg runs high, but I never add it. Whatever salt I use must put it back in. My NO3 levels tend to get low, and I sometimes have to add Brightwell NeoNitro to keep it above 1 ppm. Still, every now and then, usually after six, maybe eight months since the last time I dosed Chemiclean, I start to get cyano (red and green) and dino flare ups. I try to wait it out, vacuum it out, wish it out. In the end, nothing works as well as, "ahem"... well,... you know...Chemiclean.
Eventually I ask myself: why am I so reluctant to use Chemiclean once or twice a year? I have no idea what the proprietary blend of oxidizing ingredients is, but it works! Not only that, I have yet to have a mortality with any fish, invert, or coral that I can attribute to the use of Chemiclean. If anything, my corals seem to do better for not being irritated by cyano. Further, it seems to clear out my overflow pipes and plumbing. Why do I think that? Because I have to restrict/close the drain gate valve in my primary overflow pipe (Beananimal) to bring the inflow/outflow for the overflow box back in to balance after every Chemiclean use to keep the water level high enough in the overflow box ans stop it from "slurping" air.
I definitely enjoy my reef tank more when it's cleaner, and I think I'm done beating myself up over the slime algae and sludge I just can't seem to shake. I'm not suggesting that it be the primary method, and I get the logic that treating the symptom doesn't fix the root cause (for the life of my I don't know what that could be, because my tank parameters and husbandry are where the should be). I'm also not recommending reliance on these kind of chemicals (Chemiclean, RedSlime Remover, and others) as a crutch, used willy-nilly by anyone; especially those new to the hobby. Try to figure out what is causing the issue. But...in my experience after using Chemiclean specifically eight maybe even ten times, it works, and it hasn't hurt me one bit. In the end, I think prudent use of these additives can work. I know it's anecdotal, but it has in my case.
I'm going to stop feeling like a bad reef keeper if I use chemicals (gasp!) to help out now and then. I'm going to use it as needed along with all the other chemicals I've used like GFO, Lanthium Chloride, Nitrate additives, Phosphate additives, Carbon, MicroBacter, Vibrant, that don't seem to be so stigmatized. I finished my most recent ~48 hour dose of Chemiclean, used as directed, today. I took my UV Sterilizer and Carbon offline; left the skimmer running. Yes, it will make your skimmer go crazy. Just let it drain or overflow right back into your sump or tank. Once the treatment time is up, I found the best way to get past that is when doing the recommended 20% water change after, use your skimmer drain and/or a tube and allow the skimmer to "wet skim" the first ~1/2 (10% tank volume) of the water change and drain directly into a bucket or drain. This works for me. The last time I dosed Chemiclean was nine months ago. I may just make it part of my six month maintenance plan.
The pictures below are from five minutes ago. Please keep the online beatings bearable, but I'm curious what every one else's thoughts might be, and if there are others out there who, like me, have had good experiences with these types of additives.
"I"m Good Enough, I'm Smart Enough, and Doggone It, People Like Me!: -Stuart Smalley
Have to ask, I’m sure you get great results from using it but are those two pictures a fair reflection on the before and after? As one looks like it’s under white light and the other under heavy blues, most of our tanks will look totally different under those conditions.
It’s similar to those ads for diet pills where one is clearly pushing out their stomach and the other holding it in.
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Emerson
Active Member
If I didn't put out enough caveats in the Original Post, my apologies. I'll say again: using Chemiclean or Red Slime Remover once in a while works for me, but may not be for everybody. Just trying to question the "shaming" of using a product that is just another tool in the box.
@ Timfish, As a ten year member, you must know in R2R we're all always appreciative of encouragement and constructive comment. Thankfully, this set up is coming up on 4 1/2 years and I don't have any super-strains yet. If they do show, I'll be sure to follow up and post those pictures too. After all, that's what this collegial forum is for: a friendly exchange of information and thoughts, and to encourage our fellow aquarists and reefers. As for the Aquabiomics Test, I'm not against it, though it seems to be more of a New Tank tool to see where your tank is towards being "established". At this time, and for $99, it's not a tool I'm using or willing to pay for.
Here's the link for anyone interested in a biome bacterial test: https://www.aquabiomics.com/. If you search the BRS Live videos they do an interesting interview with one of the founders, though they were having some tech issues in keeping the live feed up. Ryan specifically used it to see where his BRS 360 was while it cycled and established itself.
In any case, here are pictures from today, one month later. The first is unfiltered under 3 x Kessil A360 and 4 x T5, the second is a few minutes later with same conditions and an orange "true color" filter. There is a little algae on the sand bed that I disturb/blow off with a SeaSquirt/turkey baster a couple times a week, but nothing growing on the rock structure. I continue to add Brightwell MicroBacter Clean weekly as directed, supposedly adding non-heterotrophic bacteria and enzymes that help consume the other pest algaes and bacteria.
Again, this is my 4 1/2 year tank, and this approach works for me. My name is Emerson, and I endorse this message! More to follow...
Emerson
Active Member
No, it's not fair becuase both pictures are taken after, sorry if I didn't make it totally clear in the original post. One is with a filter, the other without, taken minutes apart. Unfortunately I didn't take the before pictures as it didn't occur to me that I'd be writing the post until after looking at my results again, I was wondered why I ever hesitate. Again, my experience only.
Randy Holmes-Farley
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I would feel worse. Far worse. . I personally avoid products from companies that mislead reefers.
Their actual misleading statements are bad enough. Calling Chemiclean anything other than erythromycin is misleading (since it is that antibiotic).
Sad, really, that hobby companies do such things.
Emerson
Active Member
I'm not saying or advocating that Chemiclean be dosed on a planned schedule. In the past I've had my tank degrade for various unknown reasons despite having parameters dead on, plenty of flow, no overfeeding, and no new additions.
When I started my current set up four and a half years ago, I did so with 50+ lbs of Pukani dry rock. According to some Forum posts, that could be an root cause or issue. It could be that I used live sand. It could be that I didn't rinse the sand. Too much light too soon. Early on I had PO4 at zero because four years ago GFO was the best thing ever (I still use GFO, but vary sparingly).
My tank has evolved into a ULNS and I usually have NO3 in the ~1-2 ppm range; sometimes lower, but always measurable. I sometimes add a nitrogen supplement like BA NeoNitro to keep it up. Bottoming out with zero NO3 and/or PO4 has been anectdotally viewed in forums like R2R as a culprit in the micro-bacteria battle favoring cyano. In my experience I would have to agree. But in what I can or could measure (NH4, NO2, NO3, PO4, Alk, Ca, Mg) nothing was out of balance. ICS Testing confirmed this. The point being, I couldn't figure out or nail down what caused cyano break outs.
Still I delayed, wrung my hands, performed water changes trying to suck it out and waited while the cyano and/or sludge only returned days later. It built up to the point wher in my mind the decision was to try or use Chemiclean/Red Slime Remover (with slightly less effect), continue to get less and less enjoyment out of my reef tank, or re-boot. All I could see was the "filth and muck" building! Not being a micro biologist I can't say empirically what is going on, but the proprietary oxidizing or anti-bacterial ingredient in Chemiclean seems to knock back the cyano to a point where the other beneficial micro organisms can catch up and out compete it while keeping it in check again. (Thank you for joining in above @Randy Holmes-Farely. I absolutely respect your knowledge and appreciate when you have time for comment. I agree the labels with some of these whether they work or not are hard if not impossible to decipher)
Looking back on my notes, I have used a cyano remover six or seven times in the time this tank has been up; so about every 8-10 months, sometimes less. It does seem more often than not, the cyano appears in or near the transition from Spring to Summer with increased tank temp, but that is purely anecdotal. I first used it when thee tank was less than a year old. Personally, I have never had a loss I can attribute to either Chemiclean or Red Slime Remover.
The long answer to your question: For me, going forward I will use it when I need to, hopefully not more often than every six months. But... I'm done worrying on whether I'm a good reefer, what other people think, or what my mom would say. I'm pushing past any "shame" about dosing it to begin with. I will use it as a tool, not a crutch to be overused or relied on solely. Hope that helps.
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Lavey29
10K Club member
Maybe I missed it but with a 4.5 year old well established tank with stable parameters what do you attribute as the root cause of your periodic cyano?
Emerson
Active Member
No, I can't say exactly what it is.
I have good parameters, thriving corals, RODI water. Seems to be something that comes back once or twice a year. Based on some other posts I've read while researching what could cause cyano, it could be related to having NO3 at ULNS levels, below 2 ppm. I measure NO3 at least weekly with Salifert, and monthly with Hanna LR NO3 Checker. Despite heavy feeding for the eight fish, two shrimp, two urchins, and handfull of CuC I have, my usual readings are 1-3 ppm, occassionally below 1 ppm. I subscribe to heavy in/heavy out export through monthly 20%water changes, skimming, and filter socks. It has gotten better since I added Pentair 25w UV two years ago, but still needed/chose to use the Chemiclean "tool" last month with great results.
Here's a question, do you know how you've altered the microbiomes in your system?
In the interest of sharing information then, the microbiomes in reef ecosystems are very complex. They are also in constant flux. Considering how little we understand it seems we should be at least documenting how what we do is moderating the microbiomes and right now AquaBiomic's test is the only one I know of available for our systems. Here's some links starting with a couple of Aquabiomics threads here:
Establishing a Healthy Microbiome in a New Aquarium Using Live Rock
Studying the effects of live rock in a newly established aquarium shows that high-quality live rock promotes the rapid establishment of an effective biological filter and a microbial community similar to those found in mature reef tanks.
www.reef2reef.com
Experimenting with in-tank antibiotic treatments for Brown Jelly Disease
Brown Jelly Disease (BJD) is an issue many reefers have run into. Like most coral diseases, the pathogen causing BJD has not been conclusively determined. Here I will share some observations and test results supporting the idea that its caused by a bacterial pathogen, and so may be treatable...
www.reef2reef.com
Microbiome Dynamics in a Large Artificial Seawater Aquarium
The microbiome of coral surface mucus has a key role in mediating holobiont health and survival upon disturbance
The microbiome of coral surface mucus has a key role in mediating holobiont health and survival upon disturbance
Microbes are well-recognized members of the coral holobiont. However, little is known about the short-term dynamics of mucus-associated microbial communities under natural conditions and after disturbances, and how these dynamics relate to the host's ...
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
Aura-biomes are present in the water layer above coral reef benthic macro-organisms. microbes in water column
Aura-biomes are present in the water layer above coral reef benthic macro-organisms - PubMed
As coral reef habitats decline worldwide, some reefs are transitioning from coral- to algal-dominated benthos with the exact cause for this shift remaining elusive. Increases in the abundance of microbes in the water column has been correlated with an increase in coral disease and reduction in...
pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
"Coral Reefs in the Microbial Seas" This video compliments Rohwer's book of the same title (Paper back is ~$20, Kindle is ~$10), both deal with the conflicting roles of the different types of DOC in reef ecosystems. While there is overlap bewteen his book and the video both have information not covered by the other and together give a broader view of the complex relationships found in reef ecosystems
Changing Seas - Mysterious Microbes
Nitrogen cycling in hte coral holobiont
BActeria and Sponges
Maintenance of Coral Reef Health (refferences at the end)
outhouse
Valuable Member
I'm in the same boat. Occasionally cyano in perfect water. Usually brought on by the use of carbon. Little chemi clean and it's cleared up with no loss of coral. After 30 years of this, nothing bad to say about the product. It works. Most coral deaths are usually the same water conditions that brought on cyano.
I usually use it 4-5 times a year and I have used it on and off for what seems like my whole time in the hobby. Besides the PITA skimmer and having to run an air stone for 3 days it has never let me down especially in the spring when I always get a little cyano Bloom. Has always cleared up the water considerably. Always in the tool belt.
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Agreed, and who knows how that antibiotic affects the microbiome. I'm sure it kills off beneficial bacteria.
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