Chlorine to disinfect QT

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Yes I was looking up ways to neutralize it and h2o2 popped up.
https://www.clorox.com/dr-laundry/neutralizing-rinse/
http://m.wikihow.com/Neutralize-Bleach
As examples

OK, thanks.

 

[jason2459]

...
Is Bleach the same as sodium hypochlorite or does bleach just contain sodium hypochlorite? How do we know we are buying the right stuff if we buy a bleach from a normal grocery store?

...

I swear I posted this but guess it didn't post. But in short Bleach is a generic name for Chlorine in liquid form so generally is sodium hypochlorite and where as calcium hypochlorite is a bleach (chlorine) in powder form.

But yes Bleach is a generic term and many do use other agents in the bleach so look at the ingredients. Clorox is just a name brand. Bleach is the common term just like Muriatic acid is the common term for HCL. But bleach could be referring to a bleaching agent so not as clear which could be another chemical used for oxidizing or reducing. Liking mentioned above hydrogen peroxide is a bleaching agent like used for hair bleaching.

But all that said if you go to a store and look for a bottle that says Bleach across the front of it a quick look at the ingredients should just show a percentage of sodium hypochlorite.

 

[fab]

Fumes from using bleach are pretty strong. I have an enclosed equipment room. It seems that any bleach fumes would be likely to introduce chlorine into the water of other tanks such as display, sumps, refugia and other quarantine and hospital tanks in the equipment room.

What is the concept you folks are expecting for using it in decontaminating newly emptied tanks? Is the idea to remove them from the area of other tanks for cleaning? Or is the idea to be able to clean them in situ?

Also, any auxiliary equipment such as filtration, float switches, pumps, etc., will need to be decontaminated. If removal of a tank to a remote location is required for cleaning with bleach, then all its support equipment would also have to be removed for cleaning, n'est pas?

fab

 

[fab]

I understand that bleach must be kept isolated from ammonia or else chlorine gas can be generated. It seems therefore that tanks that have non-zero levels of ammonia in them would be at risk in the presence of ammonia fumes. Are the concentration levels of ammonia in a tank and of bleach fumes sufficiently low that this is not a practical concern?

 

[Sharvey103]

I have used bleach before on a QT. I used the formula Randy recommended and circulated it for 72 hours. I actually drained the tank and filled it back up with RO/DI and circulated for another 48 hours and neutralized the trace left behind becuase I wanted my equipment to be cleaned very well. I then remixed with salt and had my QT up and running again.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I understand that bleach must be kept isolated from ammonia or else chlorine gas can be generated. It seems therefore that tanks that have non-zero levels of ammonia in them would be at risk in the presence of ammonia fumes. Are the concentration levels of ammonia in a tank and of bleach fumes sufficiently low that this is not a practical concern?

It is not typically ammonia that creates chlorine gas, but low pH. So do not add acid.

Mixing bleach with ammonia produces chloramine, but I'm not sure that is any worse than hypochlorite to begin with.

This has more:

http://www.doh.wa.gov/YouandYourFamily/HealthyHome/Contaminants/BleachMixingDangers

 

[Paul B]

For all you youngsters under 60 years old, we "Mature" hobbiests have vast experience using chlorine and not just for washing our underwear. At the onset of this hobby in 1971 our tanks were constantly over run with parasites, flukes, flounders, algae, slime and everything else because we didn't have books or even Randy. So we removed all the fish (there was no live coral yet) and added one cup of "Clorox" to the tank of fifty gallons. Let it circulate for a day then add twice the amount of chlorine remover and wait 3 or 4 days. Circulate or filter through carbon, throw the fish back in and have a nice glass of Merlot. That solved all the problems. That was done a few times to my still running reef so I assume some of that original Clorox treated water is still in there. I also often added Clorox to newly collected NSW if I thought there was Red tide or something else I didn't want in my tank. It is very important that "Regular" bleach is used. If you use "New Fresh Scent" Clorox, all your fish will die in approx.. 3 minutes. Don't ask.
I did not invent this, it was Robert Straughn. The Father of salt water fish keeping in the US. (and my mentor, sort of)

 

[jason2459]

https://www.amazon.com/Salt-Water-Aquarium-Home-Robert-Straughan/dp/0498015319

 

[Paul B]

I still have it, but I think mine has a different cover.

 

[omykiss001]

I work with a lot of BSL 2 materials in the lab and we do a 1:10 dilution of common chlorox bleach. And treat for 20 min. This is the guideline put forth by the CDC for decontamination of bio hazardous materials. This includes most bacteria and pretty much all viruses. The only bacteria that tend to be able to survive this form spores and are generally in the minority of pathogenic species.

 

[Humblefish]

For all you youngsters under 60 years old, we "Mature" hobbiests have vast experience using chlorine and not just for washing our underwear.

Darn whippersnappers!

 

[Paul B]

Darn whippersnappers!

Yes they are. They come up with chlorine which we have been using for 60 years like it is a new invention. I think I can use the N word on them...Noobs.

 

[Humblefish]

Wanted to add this to the conversation, kindly provided to me by @Lionfish Lair:

As you can see, 12 ppm chlorine didn't kill all the tomonts. And even at 60 ppm some of the tomonts managed to survive for one hour.

So, you would need to get a QT (or DT) up to 60 ppm and maintain that concentration for 24 hours in order to completely eradicate ich from a tank.

 

[Paul B]

Maybe, but the live ones had a nice fresh scent.

 

[RobBaglieri]

You can disinfect or reduce bioburden with bleach, but you cannot sterilize with it. I have stored bacillus spores in 100% bleach and then grown them out. 10 % bleach is a great disinfectant and relativity cheap. For surfaces, contact time is critical for disinfecting. I would spray the surfaces and use a 10 minute contact time. Rinse with water and let sunlight do the rest. For system disinfection, you can run 10% bleach through your system then rinse out with water. Bleach should not attack silicone sealant, I pump straight bleach through silicone tubing all the time. However, it could attack other gaskets or elastomers in the system, I would inspect or change them out.

 

[Humblefish]

You can disinfect or reduce bioburden with bleach, but you cannot sterilize with it. I have stored bacillus spores in 100% bleach and then grown them out. 10 % bleach is a great disinfectant and relativity cheap. For surfaces, contact time is critical for disinfecting. I would spray the surfaces and use a 10 minute contact time. Rinse with water and let sunlight do the rest. For system disinfection, you can run 10% bleach through your system then rinse out with water. Bleach should not attack silicone sealant, I pump straight bleach through silicone tubing all the time. However, it could attack other gaskets or elastomers in the system, I would inspect or change them out.

At this point I'm starting to realize the only use for running chlorine thru a QT is to knock back heterotrophic bacteria, possibly just aerobic variants. Or actually any bacteria that uses organic carbon as a food source and thus would biodegrade medications if allowed to build-up. This could render all medications useless (except for copper) if dosed into a long-term QT.

What concentration of chlorine would I need to achieve, how long would it need to be maintained for, and how often would I need to dose chlorine in order to accomplish this?

 

[RobBaglieri]

At this point I'm starting to realize the only use for running chlorine thru a QT is to knock back heterotrophic bacteria, possibly just aerobic variants. Or actually any bacteria that uses organic carbon as a food source and thus would biodegrade medications if allowed to build-up. This could render all medications useless (except for copper) if dosed into a long-term QT.

What concentration of chlorine would I need to achieve, how long would it need to be maintained for, and how often would I need to dose chlorine in order to accomplish this?

I have no experience with salt water bacteria, however, to "sterilize" any system is very difficult. The only way to sterilize is to autoclave, use steam under pressure, radiation, ethylene oxide, or a cold sterilizer like a hydrogen peroxide acetic acid mixture. None of these are viable here. With that said, I would run 10 % bleach through the system. Then take it apart and soak parts individually to ensure all surfaces were in contact with the solution, and then air dry. This should reduce any bioburden dramatically. I would imagine that once the system is cleaned and air dried, that should eliminate or greatly reduce water born bacteria.

 

[jason2459]

https://www.amazon.com/Salt-Water-Aquarium-Home-Robert-Straughan/dp/0498015319

Boom!

$0.15 + $3.99 shipping...

Should go well with this great book

 

[omykiss001]

I have no experience with salt water bacteria, however, to "sterilize" any system is very difficult. The only way to sterilize is to autoclave, use steam under pressure, radiation, ethylene oxide, or a cold sterilizer like a hydrogen peroxide acetic acid mixture. None of these are viable here. With that said, I would run 10 % bleach through the system. Then take it apart and soak parts individually to ensure all surfaces were in contact with the solution, and then air dry. This should reduce any bioburden dramatically. I would imagine that once the system is cleaned and air dried, that should eliminate or greatly reduce water born bacteria.

+1 this is probably about as good as you can expect short of irradiation or chemical autoclaving. Even irradiation is iffy as they have found many types of microbes that have flourished just fine in the reactors at Chernobyl for some 30 odd years.

 

[Humblefish]

So, I've been reading TONS on using chlorine for disinfection, inactivation, whatever you wanna call it. From govt. studies to water treatment plant reports to swimming pool forums (user "chem geek" puts out some great information.) Anyway, I get it now that you really can't use chlorine for sterilization purposes. All you can do is reduce populations of bacteria, protozoa and viruses with it (99.99% in some cases .) 60 mg/L chlorine for 24 hours will supposedly eradicate all life stages of ich but that seems difficult to achieve.

Ironically, the most useful bit of info I found came from the govt: http://www.cdc.gov/safewater/effectiveness-on-pathogens.html

So what I've done is setup a 10 gal QT with all the usual equipment. Tomorrow morning I will dose enough liquid bleach (8.25% sodium hypochlorite) to achieve 10ppm chlorine. (That's as high as my cheap pool chlorine test kit goes. ) I will test the chlorine level every 6-8 hrs to see how long it takes to completely evaporate, and then drop a damsel in for good measure.

What I'm hoping to achieve is to reduce heterotrophic bacteria in-between batches of fish. I believe heterotrophic bacteria are capable of consuming/biodegrading medications (CP, prazi, metro, antibiotics, etc.) if their populations are left unchecked. Basically, I'm looking for a shortcut to not have to break down & sterilize a long-term QT periodically. Instead I want to dose chlorine every 2 or 3 months (or as needed) to reduce heterotrophic bacteria numbers.