Chlorine to disinfect QT

[RamsReef]

Poseidon speed.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

What is the rationale for wanting to get rid of all heterotrophic bacteria?

 

[RamsReef]

[HASHTAG]#notallbacteria[/HASHTAG] [HASHTAG]#heterotrophicbacteriamatters[/HASHTAG]

 

[Humblefish]

What is the rationale for wanting to get rid of all heterotrophic bacteria?

In the CP thread, a public aquarium employee posted this:

Typically when we dose the mg/gal dosage is pretty spot on...with that being said, our last run of CP treatment we seem to have developed bacteria in a few of the systems that have been feeding off the CP. So we are now bleaching the entire systems.

Followed up by this:

My guess would be some strain of heterotrophic bacteria. I can't remember where I saw the literature..but it essentially said consistent use of the same drug can result in the bacterial strain developing the ability to consume the medication. I believe Prazi was mentioned specifically as well.

Further research on the subject turned up this with regards to degradation of formalin:

The exact reaction that causes the degradation remains unclear, but heterotrophic bacteria, fish (Wienbeck and Koops 1990) and proteins and amino acids (Kitamoto and Maeda 1980) are possible contributors. Failure to maintain therapeutic concentration during the entire treatment cycle could lead to decreased treatment efficacy, recurrence of the pathogen, or resistance build up by the pathogen (Kuemmerer 2009).

Source: http://www.jzar.org/jzar/article/view/131

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

So you are concerned that the drug levels in your treatment system are not being maintained because a bacteria is consuming it?

 

[Humblefish]

So you are concerned that the drug levels in your treatment system are not being maintained because a bacteria is consuming it?

Yes, exactly. I figure copper (not an actual medication) would be unaffected, but all the others I use (CP, praziquantel, metronidazole, antibiotics) could be impacted. And since there's no (practical) test kit for any of those to ensure therapeutic levels are being maintained...

I realize just breaking down and completely drying the QT (and all equipment) would alleviate this problem. And that's what I usually do. However, it would be nice to know there is another way - by simply disinfecting a QT using chlorine. This would be especially useful for those who maintain large or "permanent" QTs. Just need to always have more bio-media going in the DT to add back after the chlorine evaporates.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Thanks.

 

[Humblefish]

Test thread started: https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/using-chlorine-to-disinfect-a-qt.262358/

 

[Brew12]

Yes, exactly. I figure copper (not an actual medication) would be unaffected, but all the others I use (CP, praziquantel, metronidazole, antibiotics) could be impacted. And since there's no (practical) test kit for any of those to ensure therapeutic levels are being maintained...

I realize just breaking down and completely drying the QT (and all equipment) would alleviate this problem. And that's what I usually do. However, it would be nice to know there is another way - by simply disinfecting a QT using chlorine. This would be especially useful for those who maintain large or "permanent" QTs. Just need to always have more bio-media going in the DT to add back after the chlorine evaporates.

I'm sure I am missing something easy but don't you have to break down and clean the QT tank fairly regularly if you dose with copper as part of the QT process? Wouldn't that prevent the bacteria build up you are looking to avoid?

 

[Humblefish]

I'm sure I am missing something easy but don't you have to break down and clean the QT tank fairly regularly if you dose with copper as part of the QT process? Wouldn't that prevent the bacteria build up you are looking to avoid?

It would, but many LFS I advise keep their QT systems up for months/years and never break them down. No need to dismantle a QT just because of copper so long as you are testing on a daily basis. Just add more copper as you see levels start to drop.

 

[Brew12]

It would, but many LFS I advise keep their QT systems up for months/years and never break them down. No need to dismantle a QT just because of copper so long as you are testing on a daily basis. Just add more copper as you see levels start to drop.

I think I need to re-read your post on how to QT. I must be remembering something incorrectly. I thought the fish only stayed at therapeutic copper levels for part of the QT process. I'm so glad you stickied your posts so I can go back and reference them as needed!

 

[Humblefish]

I think I need to re-read your post on how to QT. I must be remembering something incorrectly. I thought the fish only stayed at therapeutic copper levels for part of the QT process. I'm so glad you stickied your posts so I can go back and reference them as needed!

When treating with copper, you have two choices:

• Treat for 30 days at therapeutic levels and then transfer the fish into another QT/HT without lowering the copper level beforehand. This is my preferred method, and I'm even experimenting using 10 days for this method. The upside to transferring is you are getting the fish away from any unhatched tomonts which might still be present in the QT.
• Treat for 30 days at therapeutic levels and then lower the copper level by doing water changes/running carbon. Most fish can't take more than 30 days of high copper. The risk associated with this method is it can sometimes take longer than 30 days for all the theronts (free swimmers) to be released from their tomonts. These strains are probably rare but it can/does happen. However, encountering such a strain would render 30 days of copper treatment (and then lowering it) ineffective.

However, with either scenario there is no necessity to break & sterilize the copper treatment tank in-between batches of fish. Unless it is your preferred method for cleaning everything up.

 

[Brew12]

When treating with copper, you have two choices:

• Treat for 30 days at therapeutic levels and then transfer the fish into another QT/HT without lowering the copper level beforehand. This is my preferred method, and I'm even experimenting with 10 days using this method. The upside to transferring is you are getting the fish away from any unhatched tomonts which might still be present in the QT.
• Treat for 30 days at therapeutic levels and then lower the copper level by doing water changes/running carbon. Most fish can't take more than 30 days of high copper. The risk associated with this method is it can sometimes take longer than 30 days for all the theronts (free swimmers) to be released from their tomonts. These strains are probably rare but it can/does happen. However, encountering such a strain would render 30 days of copper treatment (and then lowering it) ineffective.

However, with either scenario there is no necessity to break & sterilize the copper treatment tank in-between batches of fish. Unless it is your preferred method for cleaning everything up.

I got it now... in your post on how to QT you mention that after the 30 day copper treatment it is ready for the DT if it looks healthy. It really makes more sense to have 2 QT's set up since after being poisoned by copper for 30 days the fish could probably use a few more days in non copper treated water to recover before going into the DT. Instead of breaking down the QT after transferring to the DT you could just maintain both tanks individually and save a ton of work in between QT's.

Can you tell I'm new at this? Just trying to soak up all the info I can since I should get my first tank tomorrow if all goes well. Starting with a 120 gallon tank is a bit intimidating but I want to make sure I do everything as well as possible. As with everything in life I just feel this is best done right the first time rather than having to do it again.

 

[edosan]

I use bleach all the time to desinfect hospital and qt. Liquid and granulate for pools, 4 days of bleach, all skimmers off and then a scoop of seachem safe, 3 more days, skimmer on (lots of foam) and when the skimmer is normal, water change 20% bacteria in a bottle (for QT), fishes again and no problems.
Bleach is used to dissolve artemia (brine shrimp) eggs so it will dissolve ich and velvet cists. IME works like a charm

 

[edosan]

Yes, exactly. I figure copper (not an actual medication) would be unaffected, but all the others I use (CP, praziquantel, metronidazole, antibiotics) could be impacted. And since there's no (practical) test kit for any of those to ensure therapeutic levels are being maintained...

I realize just breaking down and completely drying the QT (and all equipment) would alleviate this problem. And that's what I usually do. However, it would be nice to know there is another way - by simply disinfecting a QT using chlorine. This would be especially useful for those who maintain large or "permanent" QTs. Just need to always have more bio-media going in the DT to add back after the chlorine evaporates.

I have a tank (new) ready 75G and I add new fishes, my suprice was they where with velvet so I remove everything from the tank, and left only the sump with filter media and bacteria. I add CP (60mg per G.) and it give them relieve but eventually velvet came back and was a disaster. I think it is afected by bacteria and filter media (absorbing). took all fishes to Hospital Tank. Add Chlorine for 1 week, then seachem safe, water change 20%, add a couple of clowns right away, took like 2-3 weeks (do not remember exacly) to get algae again (signs) but when it did, was a sign to add some sticks to test...1 week later all coral sticks are ok. That is one of my experiences.

 

[drawman]

So in terms of killing/removing all encysted forms of ich and velvet is there an established protocol? I am assuming simple drying out for 24 hours would work for both (not sure about velvet)? Spraying bleach and wiping beforehand obviously wouldn't hurt.

@Humblefish thoughts?

 

[Humblefish]

@drawman 24 hours drying time eradicates all life stages of ich, velvet, etc. I personally wipe everything down using vinegar soaked paper towels, rinse and then use a fan to ensure thorough drying. Using bleach in lieu of vinegar is fine, but be sure to rinse extra good.

 

[jason2459]

Boom!

$0.15 + $3.99 shipping...

Should go well with this great book

Great bump. Both books are a joy to read. I highly recommend both.

 

[Japtastic]

@drawman 24 hours drying time eradicates all life stages of ich, velvet, etc. I personally wipe everything down using vinegar soaked paper towels, rinse and then use a fan to ensure thorough drying. Using bleach in lieu of vinegar is fine, but be sure to rinse extra good.

@Humblefish Can I just confirm that this protocol is still correct? I have some wet equipment from my 1st QT tank that I want to move to a 2nd unmediated QT tank and need to be sure it’s disinfected. Thanks.

 

[MnFish1]

Most liquid bleach I saw at the grocery store lists 8.25% sodium hypochlorite - even the cheap stuff. When I get back from my trip, I will begin experimenting. I'll start with Randy's suggestion of 1 cup per 25 gallons, test the chlorine level and see where that gets me.

well in swimming pools 1-3 ppm is used. I would guess 200ppm would kill everything. (probably much less is needed) there is lots of literature out there documenting the levels required. for example:

Table 1: disinfection time for several different types of pathogenic microorganisms with chlorinated water, containing a chlorine concentration of 1 mg/L (1 ppm) when pH = 7,5 and T = 25 °C

Disinfection time of fecal pollutants with chlorinated water
E. coli 0157 H7 bacterium < 1 minute
Hepatitis A virus about 16 minutes
Giardia parasite about 45 minutes
Cryptosporidium about 9600 minutes (6,7 days)


Read more: https://www.lenntech.com/processes/disinfection/chemical/disinfectants-chlorine.htm#ixzz5J1HgL2Kw