Chloroquine phosphate

Humblefish · Mar 14, 2016

@dangros Cipro may work, but as I've never used it with CP before I cannot speak of any possible interaction issues.

TheRealDmorty217 · Mar 14, 2016

@ dangros be careful using cipro and CP since the cipro will negatively effect the nitrifying bacteria in the filter/tank. A ammonia alert badge is a nice thing to have in any QT but especially one that meds are being used in

dangros · Mar 14, 2016

Thanks @TheRealDmorty217 . I have the badge of honor in the tank and I check on it several times a day. In fact, I've already ordered a new one so that I'm ready to QT the new fish once my tank has been restored to a disease free environment. Whatever this disease is, I no longer think it was Ich.

mcarroll · Mar 14, 2016

Humblefish said:
This used to contain erythromycin, but since they changed the formulation I have no idea which antibiotic (if any) it contains now.

As far as I know it's always been an oxidizer, not an antibiotic. I honestly can't remember where I found that out anymore though it was quite a while ago.

Was the antibiotic thing just hearsay, or did you read that from an authoritative source at some point? (any chance of a link or source?)

Maybe we are talking about a very very long time ago like 30+ years?

TheRealDmorty217 · Mar 14, 2016

I agree that wasn't ich. Like humblefish said it looks like a secondary bacterial issue.

dangros · Mar 14, 2016

I'm thinking the first issue wasn't ich as well. A couple of my fish (and eel) look perfectly healthy. I had 3 deaths: flame angel, bi-color blenny, kole tang. All of them from the same order. They all seemed to be grazing before the mini-meltdown. The flame had spots first but then seemed to recover and the day before it's death, looked perfectly healthy.
The exiting critters continue to plod along w/o issue. My sps's and other corals look fine. I'm starting to wonder if I should avoid tangs!
Something else that happened was one of my 3 BTA's almost croaked. I did a 30% water change and it began to recover. The only thing I could see wrong in my tank was that the alkalinity got a bit high at 12.05. I turned off the calc rx till it dropped to 9.2.

mcarroll · Mar 14, 2016

Are you sure alk was the only thing that was "off" since you're running a calcium reactor and alk doesn't get added seperately?

Was pH also depressed due to high CO2 levels in the water? This would have a depressive effect on the level of O2 in the water...

...which could definitely stress fish. If they were stressed to begin with, low-O2 could play the part of "the last straw".

Any idea what happened with the Ca reactor for it to get wonky like that? :mad: (An example of why most folks have given up on Ca reactors.)

(And, yes, I would lay off of tangs at least until things have been stablized for a good while.)

mcarroll · Mar 14, 2016

dangros said:
I just realized I also have Cipro. Can I use that? If so how much? Otherwise, I'll have to wait for the Kanaplex to arrive tomorrow b/c the stores aren't carrying the antibiotics any longer. I guess they are afraid of regulation or misuse?

[soapbox]

It seems unlikely you could get a prescription for Cirpo for your fish tank.

If you didn't take all your Cipro from a prescription, that's misuse, and it may even cause you (or whoever it was for) to develop a resistant bug.

When And How To Take Antibiotics

Leftover antibiotics (which there should be none of) aren't even supposed to go down the drain...let alone through a fish tank and down the drain.

There is a very short list of drugs that are "ok" to go down the drain....and that's only "ok" because they are "more dangerous" sitting in the garbage. (drugs that are abused)

Here's the list:
http://www.fda.gov/Drugs/ResourcesF...eDisposalofMedicines/ucm186187.htm#Flush_List

From another section on the same link:

FDA supports the responsible disposal of medicines from the home. Almost all medicines can be safely disposed of by using medicine take-back programs or using U.S. Drug Enforcement Agency (DEA)-authorized collectors. When these options are not available, consumers may also dispose of unneeded medicine in their household trash.

[/soapbox]

Fish stores do have over-the-counter options...but it's possible your local stores just don't carry them.

Maybe ask them to order one for you that you have in mind - it may be quicker than ordering online and (more importantly) they may decide to stock it for you in the future.

It seems worth pointing out that antibiotics like Cipro are very stressful to the organism you are trying to save - even humans. They should not be used lightly, or outside the scope of the directions given with the product.

Humblefish · Mar 14, 2016

mcarroll said:
As far as I know it's always been an oxidizer, not an antibiotic. I honestly can't remember where I found that out anymore though it was quite a while ago.

Was the antibiotic thing just hearsay, or did you read that from an authoritative source at some point? (any chance of a link or source?)

Maybe we are talking about a very very long time ago like 30+ years?

I'd have to do some digging, but at one time it did contain erythromycin. Of course, Chemiclean has been around forever so maybe it was 20-30 years ago. I believe they changed the formulation primarily because they ran afoul in Europe for having erythromycin in their product.

dangros · Mar 14, 2016

I'm quite sure that the calcium reactor is not the cause of anything sinister. I test the alkalinity fairly regularly even though I did get away for me a bit. The pH is monitored via Apex and probe so I would get an email, text, and voice alarm if the pH got out of range

dangros · Mar 16, 2016

@Humblefish, the tang is still kick'n! It's been in QT w/CP since March 5. Last night, I put in the Kanaplex. Would Prazipro help?
It is almost always laying sideways under the PVC or the HOB filter. I've been feeding various foods but don't ever see him take any. The water is starting to get cloudy and in spite of feeding small amounts 1/day, there is a good amount of junk accumulating in the 10g tank.
Even though the badge shows no ammonia, the water quality must be deteriorating. How should I proceed? The marks are still on the tang but they seem a little better.

Humblefish said:
@dangros Is he eating in QT? All the hippos I tried to run thru CP wouldn't eat and died about a week in.

ZoaCollector · Mar 16, 2016

Mods please put this in a sticky*
Very valuable information

Humblefish · Mar 16, 2016

dangros said:
@Humblefish, the tang is still kick'n! It's been in QT w/CP since March 5. Last night, I put in the Kanaplex. Would Prazipro help?

You never want to mix Prazipro with CP.

dangros said:
It is almost always laying sideways under the PVC or the HOB filter. I've been feeding various foods but don't ever see him take any. The water is starting to get cloudy and in spite of feeding small amounts 1/day, there is a good amount of junk accumulating in the 10g tank.
Even though the badge shows no ammonia, the water quality must be deteriorating. How should I proceed? The marks are still on the tang but they seem a little better.

The binder in CP will sometimes turn the water cloudy. Have you seen the Hippo eat at all the entire time it's been in CP?

dangros · Mar 16, 2016

I have not seen it eat even once. But that doesn't mean it hasn't eaten something while I was out of the room. Could it still be alive after all this time if it didnt eat SOMETHING?The tank is in the basement which is somewhat unfinished and no one goes down there except me for the fish. If it so much as sees the light change by me walking in front of the door, it darts under stuff. I've snuck up on it a few times - that was the only way I knew it swam around at all. The Kanaplex says to dose every other day up to 3 doses or till symptoms are gone. So if I see splotches on it tomorrow, does again?

Humblefish · Mar 17, 2016

dangros said:
I have not seen it eat even once. But that doesn't mean it hasn't eaten something while I was out of the room. Could it still be alive after all this time if it didnt eat SOMETHING?The tank is in the basement which is somewhat unfinished and no one goes down there except me for the fish. If it so much as sees the light change by me walking in front of the door, it darts under stuff. I've snuck up on it a few times - that was the only way I knew it swam around at all. The Kanaplex says to dose every other day up to 3 doses or till symptoms are gone. So if I see splotches on it tomorrow, does again?

I've tried three Hippo tangs with CP now, same thing happens every time: They hide, never eat and roughly a week later I find the fish dead.

Very similar to what happens when you use CP on a Sixline Wrasse.

I would keep the fish in Kanaplex for 10 consecutive days, dosing every 48 hrs. But you might want to consider getting him out of CP. How long has it been?

dangros · Mar 17, 2016

I put him in the QT (w/CP) on March 5th, so we're on day 12. I just put in the 2nd dose of Kanaplex and some food this morning. There was poop coming out of his booty which I took as a potentially good sign.
Should I make a fresh batch of salt water, bring it up to the same temp, and do 100% water change, add 2 new scoops of Kanaplex (recommended dose for the 10g QT) ?

Humblefish · Mar 17, 2016

dangros said:
I put him in the QT (w/CP) on March 5th, so we're on day 12. I just put in the 2nd dose of Kanaplex and some food this morning. There was poop coming out of his booty which I took as a potentially good sign.
Should I make a fresh batch of salt water, bring it up to the same temp, and do 100% water change, add 2 new scoops of Kanaplex (recommended dose for the 10g QT) ?

This is what I would do in your shoes (and I have done this many times before):

CP does its job in just 10 days. I've tested this enough times now to be certain of it. However, you must transfer the fish to a different QT (at least 10 feet away) from the treatment tank. Do not lower the CP or any other medications before doing this, just do it. DO NOT reuse any water/equipment from the original treatment tank; everything in the tank you are transferring him to must be new/sterile. What you are doing is leaving any external parasite problems behind in the original treatment tank, while the presence of CP in the water is protecting your fish from reinfection.

Continue antibiotic treatment in the new QT and also deworm, if necessary.

raultsu · Mar 17, 2016

Humblefish said:
This is what I would do in your shoes (and I have done this many times before):

CP does its job in just 10 days. I've tested this enough times now to be certain of it. However, you must transfer the fish to a different QT (at least 10 feet away) from the treatment tank. Do not lower the CP or any other medications before doing this, just do it. DO NOT reuse any water/equipment from the original treatment tank; everything in the tank you are transferring him to must be new/sterile. What you are doing is leaving any external parasite problems behind in the original treatment tank, while the presence of CP in the water is protecting your fish from reinfection.

Continue antibiotic treatment in the new QT and also deworm, if necessary.

If CP does its job in 10 days why do we leave them in CP for 30 days?

Humblefish · Mar 17, 2016

raultsu said:
If CP does its job in 10 days why do we leave them in CP for 30 days?

Because most people only have one QT to work with. CP/copper/hypo only targets the free swimming or theront stage. If a fish has ich, the treatment tank he is in won't reach the theront stage until 2-3 weeks (on average) so treating for 30 days allows for a little wiggle room. Indeed, even treating for 30 days may not be long enough if you happen to encounter a strain of ich with a prolonged life cycle (very rare). But the bottom line is this: With only one QT, you are actually treating the tank for ich more so than the fish itself.

However, if you can setup TWO QTs (at least 10 feet apart) - a treatment tank and a separate observation tank - then that is a game changer. Any trophonts will have dropped off a fish after 7 days max, and all the CP/copper/hypo is doing is protecting a fish from reinfection. So by removing the fish to a new sterile tank, he will stay disease-free.

Obviously, nothing can be reused from the treatment tank for the observation tank to prevent cross contamination.

I still advocate watching the fish for awhile in the observation tank just to be sure no human error has occurred such as cross contamination.

dangros · Mar 17, 2016

That's hopeful news. I picked up another 10g tank at lunch time and will xfer the tang tonight. As for feeding this guy, I will pick up some red titan macro from a local reefer (will put in new QT tonight) and ordered some Gracilaria. It will be much easier to see if macro is being consumed. I've already switched to rod's herbivore which I occasionally mix with mysis. I put the mysis on a paper towel and let it defrost. That way, the extra liquid gets absorbed in the towel instead of polluting the tank.
I'm throwing everything at this guy to get him back!