Chris's "what the heck am i doing wrong" help thread...

[1Der9_3hy]

Meet Chris
<--------------------This guy!

Background:

Been reefing for 4 years, FW before that for as long as i can remember. Bred some stuff, propagated lots of things, and i feel like i should be able to hold a B.S in chemistry after being in this hobby for a few years lol. Ive had 4 reef tanks since i started in this hobby, the oldest is 2.5 years. My current systems are:

15 gallon nano @ work (mixed reef) (1.5 years old)
30 gallon DAS AIO at home (fish/softys) (2.5 years old)
36x18x12 w/matching sump prop tank in my basement (4-5 months old)

I can keep and grow just about anything in my nano work tank, and its my most neglected tank...go figure. I dont test the water, and i only change water every other month.

My AIO at home is very low maintenance, i simply top up every few days and feed daily. Grows soft corals quite well, as well as keeps fish fat.

My prop tank is the newest addition, it replaced a 48x24x12 system i had that was too large for me to properly maintain given many factors (time, ro/di capacity, $). This smaller system is much easier to maintain thanks to a better setup, some planning that was done ahead of time, and an overall love for the hobby.

The reason for this thread (and i expect this thread to be active for at least a few months...if not longer):

Why is it i cant keep stonys happy in my prop tank? I have always been able to fix my problems via the web and great forums like this...but i can find anything that will work in this tank.

Some facts/measurements:
-Consistent params (i measure pH, alk and temp daily...lately ive been measuring when i get up, when i get home, and before bed trying to spot a swing. None have shown up yet)
-I add 10 ml of alk buffer daily to keep the alk @ 3.0 meg/l. If i dont it will drop down around 2.5 meg/l and stay there.
-No3 = 25, Po4 does not show up on a titration test kit + i run a reactor of GFO, amm = 0, No2 = 0
-Tank temp = 78.5-80
-Total system volume = 50 gallons
-lighting is 2x39 watt T5 HO's (when the tank fills up more ill add either 2 more bulbs or buy a fixture with 4 bulbs...possibly might go to MH w/ a light mover rail)
-Currently it has some jap toadstools, Z's, P's and a few shrooms/rics. I added some red cap, and some pavona maldensis (freebies) about 3 weeks ago...but they have since lost most of the color. Ill get a pic of what they look like and post it up. Its not RTN or STN i dont think, but i dont know what to call it.
-Currently use water changes + chaeto w/T5 HO 6700K bulbs for nutrient export. Some of you may remember i tried bio pellets, but they did not work at this time. Im interested in trying them again down the road however....

And so it begins. Any questions? Any thing you feel i left out or may be overlooking? Id like to hear it! My only goal is to get this system to where it can not only support all stonys, but grow them well. If that means i get "egg on my face" then so be it...no one is perfect (all the time )!

Pics of the setup to come.....

 

[subielover]

Well, it seems to me that you don't have much light and your nitrates are over 25, both of these could be contributing factors to not being able to keep sps colored up.

 

[Paul_N]

Hi Chris!

I would definitely agree with subie in that your lighting and nitrates of 25 will both cause issues with color.

 

[fsu1dolfan]

Hey Chris - Sounds like you have had some nice setups..fresh and salt. Personally i have a 29g Biocube - My first and only reef tank to date, going since 2007. I started out with softies and some LPS...but around 2009 i tried my hand at SPS. I had a few frags just brown out and two that hung around. One was the Purple Garf Bonsai and Tyree Setosa. I continued to work on my water quality and consistent parmeters. The beginning of this year i changed a couple of things and my SPS has taken off plus the colors look better and better everyday.

1) FLOW - I only has a nano Koralia and my return pump is a HF6 Rio...This year i bought a MP10 and got rid of the Koralia. I cant even tell you how much of a difference this has made...barely any dead spots!!

2) Skimmer - I use to have the BioCube Skimmer which is a joke...Replaced it with a Tunze 9002.

These are the two biggest changes this year and not sure which one did it but my SPS is looking amazing and getting deeper colors! Not that my system was bad before but things were just ok...recently my tank is looking crisp and super healthy!!

How is the flow in your tank??

 

[1Der9_3hy]

Wow, i love this site. 3 great responses before i even get settled in at work lol. I have some stuff to do right now, but im uploading pics to help illustrate the tank in question and to show everyone how things are running.

Ill work on answering/questions as i get time in a bit.

 

[Anthony Calfo]

Normally this would be a hard and general question to answer. But its suprisingly easy in this case. Sorry to differ too, but your lighting is fine. Lights dont grow corals as much as they keep them alive (respiration, basic carbon/energy for life). Minerals and nutrients (nitrogen) are the body builders with water flow to shape them. your nitrates are fine too. Coral farmers add sodium nitrate to their water to grow corals faster. you simply need a steady supply of nitrogen. Corals are not adversely affected by nitrates like fishes are. They consume nitrate. But so do pest creatures that are noxious (algae, obviously). Thats the greater concern with excess nitrates: a sign of excess feeding, lack of water changes, poor skimming, chemicals from blooming algae, etc.

your problem almost certainly is allelopathy. You have some of the most categorically noxious soft corals known to man (Sarcophyton and Corallimorphs ate top ten most noxious out of several hundred corals and the zoanthids aren't far behind) established in a tank that you are trying to add to, in part, some of the most categorically weak corals (Montis for starters and "baby' sps frags in general).

if you established the stonies first and then added the softies in the future it would work at first and for a while longer many months actually). In the end, the softies and algae win. they are chemically brutal.

Extra water changes help. Ozone use is a HUGE help when mixing unnatural corals together. But long term you need to deice if this is a shallow water softie tank (Sarcophyton and Zoanthus species) or is this a deeper water stony tank (Plating montis, Acans and Blastos, eg)...or if this is a shallow stony reef perhaps (increase light and water flow to have colorful thick fingered Acros)

 

[Anthony Calfo]

By the way...I have personally seen and collected red/orange/colored Montis and Pavona maldivensis in Tonga and neighboring South Pac locales...they are categorically deep water or heavily shaded. When the species occurs in shallow water or in bright light on the reef, they are sickly (pale) colored from the light stress. Just didnt settle in a good place.

in home aquaria, they fare best if treated like Scolymia, Cynarina, etc...heavily blue weighted lamps (Radium 20k K is ideal or the like)

 

[subielover]

Anthony,
I have seen many fantastic mixed reefs that do not run ozone, and have been setup for more than a few years. Curious as to why you think that some people are very successful in keeping mixed reefs, given your previous statements. Thanks.

 

[Murfman]

Here is what I think. Your prop tank is new. Your corals need time to adjust from the prior environment to the new one, and that includes adjusting to the lights. I don't think that you have too little light. I run LEDs on my tank and the colors are great on my SPS and have good growth. Water quality has much more of an impact on the corals than lighting does. Another think is to look at what you have for corals and see if there is any chemical warfare going on (alleopathy). Believe it or not, the mushrooms could be causing issues.

 

[Murfman]

****, Anthony beat me to the punch. I need more coffee to wake up!!!

 

[1Der9_3hy]

Alright first are pics with descriptions of whats going on.

Just got my RO/DI! Still need to run the lines for waste/output/input, but it should be up and running today or tomorrow. Im also waiting for my dual inline TDS meter from buckeye field supply...should be here anyday now.

Here the the ATO reservoir (15 gallons), left side of tank/sump shot. Hanging off the front is my GFO reacotor, i need to work it into the fray still.

Right side of the tank/FW resevoir

The all important log! I keep track of as much as possible, and right down everything i can think off. I started powerlifting a few years back, and if there is one thing i learned from it its that you need to know EVERYTHING and record it all before you can solve a problem. This rule definitly carries over to reefing.

The tank setup: .5"-1" of sp. grade from CaribSea and your usual egg crate/pvc rack (i may get rid of that becuase i use those flat squares instead of plugs)

Sump shot. Skimmer is a deltec AP600, light is 2x24 watt T5 HO 6700K, return pump is around 300-400 gph after headloss.

Overflow im using. I really like this, its got some safety built into it and skims the surface great. Silent as well!

Tank with light on:

The following are shots of the red cap and pavona, ill post them all in an attempt to show whats going on with them better. They have been in here about 3 weeks, and everyday that goes by they lose a little more color. I think they are losing tissue as well, but i cant be certain (kind of a noob when it comes to stonys since ive never had to "work" on making them live/grow).

 

[Anthony Calfo]

Subie...The reefs you have seen most likely are reefs from fellow forum folks who comprise the rare minority of aquarists that do not succumb to the brutal turnover of 22 months or less in the hobby that the majority of aquarists fall to (a staggering muber really that hasnt changed much or gotten better in decades...so many hobbyists fail do to algae frustration, ich kills or both).

Club reefers, forum reefers, etc are frankly more interested, more learned and better aquarists because they spend extra time with their hobby. All of the little things that do that keep them successful stretch the time that a mixed reef can survive (even indefinitely among the best of them)

But my statement is general as I always speak to the majority of folks that will read or share this info. With consideration for the fact that the thread is archived, searched and perhaps read in time by others - again - who likely do not fall into the statistical minority of intuitive, extra skilled aquarists.

We can't argue on semantics just because there are exceptions to any rule. I'm hoping to help more folks than the few exceptions that don't need our help.

Study the demographics from PIJAC or any reasonable sampling of reefers participating in the hobby. The majority are reef aquarists get bad advice on stocking, specie mixing, hardware, algae control, qt (lack of), etc. You simply will scarcely find, if at all, someone with a hail mary mix of corals, weak water change schedule, little to no carbon use (let alone ozone) no ich or algae problems and still have an amazing tank fter 6 months let alone 2 years. Does...not...happen.

You and I are talking about apples and oranges, my friend.

 

[1Der9_3hy]

Normally this would be a hard and general question to answer. But its suprisingly easy in this case. Sorry to differ too, but your lighting is fine. Lights dont grow corals as much as they keep them alive (respiration, basic carbon/energy for life). Minerals and nutrients (nitrogen) are the body builders with water flow to shape them. your nitrates are fine too. Coral farmers add sodium nitrate to their water to grow corals faster. you simply need a steady supply of nitrogen. Corals are not adversely affected by nitrates like fishes are. They consume nitrate. But so do pest creatures that are noxious (algae, obviously). Thats the greater concern with excess nitrates: a sign of excess feeding, lack of water changes, poor skimming, chemicals from blooming algae, etc.

your problem almost certainly is allelopathy. You have some of the most categorically noxious soft corals known to man (Sarcophyton and Corallimorphs ate top ten most noxious out of several hundred corals and the zoanthids aren't far behind) established in a tank that you are trying to add to, in part, some of the most categorically weak corals (Montis for starters and "baby' sps frags in general).

if you established the stonies first and then added the softies in the future it would work at first and for a while longer many months actually). In the end, the softies and algae win. they are chemically brutal.

Extra water changes help. Ozone use is a HUGE help when mixing unnatural corals together. But long term you need to deice if this is a shallow water softie tank (Sarcophyton and Zoanthus species) or is this a deeper water stony tank (Plating montis, Acans and Blastos, eg)...or if this is a shallow stony reef perhaps (increase light and water flow to have colorful thick fingered Acros)

First, its amazing to be getting help from someone like your self. I really appreciate the time your spending typing this out.

I get the feeling from your post (or lack of mentioning in your post) that carbon is over rated when it comes to quelling allelopathy? At this time O3 is not in the play book, and i dont know if i want to invest into that either.

Sounds like "what the heck is wrong with this" is solved?

By the way...I have personally seen and collected red/orange/colored Montis and Pavona maldivensis in Tonga and neighboring South Pac locales...they are categorically deep water or heavily shaded. When the species occurs in shallow water or in bright light on the reef, they are sickly (pale) colored from the light stress. Just didnt settle in a good place.

in home aquaria, they fare best if treated like Scolymia, Cynarina, etc...heavily blue weighted lamps (Radium 20k K is ideal or the like)

Very cool, thanks for the first hand experience. -

Here is what I think. Your prop tank is new. Your corals need time to adjust from the prior environment to the new one, and that includes adjusting to the lights. I don't think that you have too little light. I run LEDs on my tank and the colors are great on my SPS and have good growth. Water quality has much more of an impact on the corals than lighting does. Another think is to look at what you have for corals and see if there is any chemical warfare going on (alleopathy). Believe it or not, the mushrooms could be causing issues.

****, Anthony beat me to the punch. I need more coffee to wake up!!!

lol, i still appreciate the effort

 

[Anthony Calfo]

Spot on, my friend. Carbon use is excellent for many reasons. And I use it in all my systems faithfully (changing small portions weekly rather than larger portions monthly). If for no other reason than to insure stable water clarity and optimize lighting efficiency (penetration of light at depth). But to depend on it as a principle means of tempering allelopathy would not be on the right path. Simple water changes are far more effective via dilution. And for systems where larger water changes are cost prohibitive, ozone is a good value and solution. Thats why I didn't mention carbon use here. Ironically, if you use ozone...you will need a small bit of carbon, and that's all good. Cheers!

 

[1Der9_3hy]

Thanks Anthony.

I was planning on doing 5-10 gallons a week in waterchanges, do you think that would be enough to give stonys a try again somewhere down the road if i removed the shrooms and leathers?

 

[Anthony Calfo]

It really depends on what you keep. Frankly, with most corallimorphs, Sarcos and so-called Cladiellas (Klyxum, the upright "Colt" corals), all bets are off. They are just oppressively noxious to stonies.

Ricordea are milder however, among corallimorphs. And zooanthids in small measures are really manageable with stonies.

I'd be inclined to recommend larger bi-monthly water changes. 10% weekly just isn't going to make much of a dent. 90% is left behind Well...worse as time goes by (compounded).

I think you need to tell yoru family that the Reef2Reef folks said you need many more aquariums so you can do species or family specific tanks XD

 

[1Der9_3hy]

lol, @ the aqurium additions

What you cant see behind me is a 90 gallon that i have a breeding pair of flowerhorns in, opposite them near the stairs (right of the frag tank) is a shallow betta lagoon i have with a few breeding pairs of wild betta species and a papyrus plant growing in the middle of it. Theeeeeeeeennnnnnn i have 2 50 gallon barrels, one for Ro and one for FW water changes. If anything i need to prioritize my addiction, not add onto it

Thanks for the tips in this thread. I trust what you say 100%, but at the same time ive had some success with "mixed" reefs in the past. Albeit they were not in the extreme this one is, which is why i beleive you are right. Having 3 4-5" leathers + 20 zoa frags and then placing 2 sps frags in the middle of it does sound like a bad idea when i think of it now. I completely forgot about the word aleopathy until i seen you put it here, then it all snapped back in order and made sense.

 

[1Der9_3hy]

I have some reef books im trading locally, and im my lunch i was going back through J. Sprungs "Reef Notes vol. 1" and seen he was really enamored with O3 when it was published (1988).

In your opinion, would proper use of O3 on this tank move stonys from "**** near impossible" within the realm of "possible"? Im in this hobby for the challenge/reward, so if its something that will take some work its right up my alley

 

[1Der9_3hy]

An update for anyone interested:

I removed all the leathers, and all the shrooms. Then i changed out about 50% of the water over two days. I currently only have Z's & P's, plus what i added below:

frag of poccilipora
frag of wall hammer
frag of green slimer

ALL look great, opened right up and have great PE. Thats a lot better than what the other stonys i added did. Its still too soon to tell, but Calfo's hypothesis looks like it was spot on. I will update in a few weeks.