Ciliates and antibiotics

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Hey guys I have a question about Ciliates and was wondering if antibiotics kill them???
There is a large speculation that many corals can be infected by different types of Ciliates and that is actually one of the biggest reasons corals can become infected and die from BJD, STN, RTN and other things. There are many different types of pathogens that can make our reefing experience difficult but I don't know too much about Ciliates. I know that there has been evidence that they can eat away and burrow into corals and eat them from the inside out, Ive personally experienced where corals have become infected with something and have died. The heads melt right off the skeleton and wonder if this is what caused it. I know that if I really wanted to diagnose something I need to get a microscope, but if I did think that a coral was dying from a Ciliate infection would an antibiotic effectively kill a Ciliate??? I know that antibiotics work in ways that some are bacterial static and they attach to the chromosomes of the bacterial and prevent them from reproducing (Chloramphenicol) and some are bactericidal where they just kill the bacteria by braking down there cell walls. Does this work the same way with Ciliates which are advanced protozoans????
Microbiology is fun

 

[Instigate]

There was recently a lot of discussion on this. Metroplex was used to kill ciliates in a study, philaster I think it was, I forget the details. @MnFish1 is more knowledgeable about this than me so I'll tag him. I think @Thales was also a knowledgeable individual that was on that thread.

 

[MnFish1]

There was recently a lot of discussion on this. Metroplex was used to kill ciliates in a study, philaster I think it was, I forget the details. @MnFish1 is more knowledgeable about this than me so I'll tag him. I think @Thales was also a knowledgeable individual that was on that thread.

https://royalsocietypublishing.org/doi/pdf/10.1098/rspb.2014.0094

Note this study was not designed to 'treat' RTN - but to try to 'prove' that it was bacteria that were the primary pathogens - and ciliates secondary.

Antibiotics (Ampicillin and paramymycin) were used to kill the bacteria that was thought to be causing RTN. Metronidazole was used to kill ciliates. The concentration of all 3 was: 100 micrograms/ml
The antibiotics were added directly into tanks filled with 3 l of seawater collected from the original location of the corals. Repeat dosage was dissolved in 1.5 l of seawater every 12 h, and half the water in the experimental tanks was replaced with the new water.

Edit - it was shown that antibiotics halted/reversed RTN. Metronidiizole allowed the lesion to progress - though the level of ciliates was 'undetectable'.

 

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https://royalsocietypublishing.org/doi/pdf/10.1098/rspb.2014.0094

Note this study was not designed to 'treat' RTN - but to try to 'prove' that it was bacteria that were the primary pathogens - and ciliates secondary.

Antibiotics (Ampicillin and paramymycin) were used to kill the bacteria that was thought to be causing RTN. Metronidazole was used to kill ciliates. The concentration of all 3 was: 100 micrograms/ml
The antibiotics were added directly into tanks filled with 3 l of seawater collected from the original location of the corals. Repeat dosage was dissolved in 1.5 l of seawater every 12 h, and half the water in the experimental tanks was replaced with the new water.

Edit - it was shown that antibiotics halted/reversed RTN. Metronidiizole allowed the lesion to progress - though the level of ciliates was 'undetectable'.

Ok i'm reading it right now, I also found an interesting article that somewhat answered my question
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5487518/
The reason I'm so interested is Ive all ways battled with random BJD breakouts in my tank. When this happens its usually in one of my frogspawn corals and I don't realize until its already set in. I can usually stop it with peroxide but it is so hard on my corals and sometimes it doesn't take care of the infection. The infections start at the bases of my Euphyllia corals (frogspawn, torch, hammer) and eat away at the tissue holding the coral to the skeleton until the head just falls off. during this process Sometime I see BJD and sometimes I don't. I was reading an article yesterday where Someone had confirmed via microscope that in a similar situation to mine they had a large amount of ciliats on their coral.OK backing up, I recently had an infection randomly once again but this time I was prepared to experiment. I bought some chloramphenicol which is a bacterial static antibiotic and made a solution in a Tupperware of tank water and antibiotic. I dipped the corals for about 1 hour twice a day and the results were fantastic. Even heads that the infection had penetrated deep into the head of a Euphyllia recovered. Not only that but I had a large Acanthophyllia deshayesiana (meat coral) that during this break out rapidly started declining as well. at night and during the day the mouth would stay wide open and I even saw that the tissue in the center did not look right. I also dipped him in antibiotics and within two days I could hardly tell he was ever sick. Now my question is could this have also been caused by a Ciliate infection and if so that must mean that chloramphenicol can also kill Ciliates. The article I posted is an experiment where they were trying to make a Axenic culture of ciliate Entodinium caudatum. They were trying to use antibiotics to kill the bacteria but leave the Ciliate. They failed as the antibiotics also killed the ciliates. In any case maybe antibiotics can be used to kill both ciliates and bacteria.

 

[MnFish1]

Ok i'm reading it right now, I also found an interesting article that somewhat answered my question
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5487518/
The reason I'm so interested is Ive all ways battled with random BJD breakouts in my tank. When this happens its usually in one of my frogspawn corals and I don't realize until its already set in. I can usually stop it with peroxide but it is so hard on my corals and sometimes it doesn't take care of the infection. The infections start at the bases of my Euphyllia corals (frogspawn, torch, hammer) and eat away at the tissue holding the coral to the skeleton until the head just falls off. during this process Sometime I see BJD and sometimes I don't. I was reading an article yesterday where Someone had confirmed via microscope that in a similar situation to mine they had a large amount of ciliats on their coral.OK backing up, I recently had an infection randomly once again but this time I was prepared to experiment. I bought some chloramphenicol which is a bacterial static antibiotic and made a solution in a Tupperware of tank water and antibiotic. I dipped the corals for about 1 hour twice a day and the results were fantastic. Even heads that the infection had penetrated deep into the head of a Euphyllia recovered. Not only that but I had a large Acanthophyllia deshayesiana (meat coral) that during this break out rapidly started declining as well. at night and during the day the mouth would stay wide open and I even saw that the tissue in the center did not look right. I also dipped him in antibiotics and within two days I could hardly tell he was ever sick. Now my question is could this have also been caused by a Ciliate infection and if so that must mean that chloramphenicol can also kill Ciliates. The article I posted is an experiment where they were trying to make a Axenic culture of ciliate Entodinium caudatum. They were trying to use antibiotics to kill the bacteria but leave the Ciliate. They failed as the antibiotics also killed the ciliates. In any case maybe antibiotics can be used to kill both ciliates and bacteria.

It is not the ciliate that causes the problem (at least thats the thought) - its bacteria. Only certain antibiotics (metronidazole) kill the ciliates. Metronidazole does not do anything to the bacteria - to stop RTN - probably best to start by killing the bacteria (as it does in the article with ampicillin - I would be careful with chloramphenicol) - and kill the ciliates with metronidazole if you want.

 

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According the image 3H in that article i shared Chloramphenicol killed the ciliates they were using in the experiment. Maybe they are of a different species than the aquaria but it is interesting. I never added Chloramphenicol to my tank but the corals that I treated with it are doing great, it was a one time experiment for me but it worked so well that if I ever have problems i'm going to try it again. These infections are rare for me, Ive also seen people with corals that decline and no matter what they do they do they just die, I wonder if they simply have a bateria/ciliate infection and if this would be a good solution for people to try. I also wonder what types of antibiotics were used in the experiment on Acropora. Its so interesting to me, the closest I will ever get to being a doctor haha
next time I have an infection I'm going to take a sample and see if I can identify the pathogen, I wonder if the bacteria or Ciliates are to blame for me

 

[MnFish1]

According the image 3H in that article i shared Chloramphenicol killed the ciliates they were using in the experiment. Maybe they are of a different species than the aquaria but it is interesting. I never added Chloramphenicol to my tank but the corals that I treated with it are doing great, it was a one time experiment for me but it worked so well that if I ever have problems i'm going to try it again. These infections are rare for me, Ive also seen people with corals that decline and no matter what they do they do they just die, I wonder if they simply have a bateria/ciliate infection and if this would be a good solution for people to try. I also wonder what types of antibiotics were used in the experiment on Acropora. Its so interesting to me, the closest I will ever get to being a doctor haha
next time I have an infection I'm going to take a sample and see if I can identify the pathogen, I wonder if the bacteria or Ciliates are to blame for me

Chloramphenicol likely killed the bacteria as well. Here is an interesting article - it also mentions the question whether its bacteria or ciliates?

http://aquariumcoraldiseases.weebly.com/brown-jelly-syndrome-bjs--brown-band-disease-brb.html

 

[John bryant]

According the image 3H in that article i shared Chloramphenicol killed the ciliates they were using in the experiment. Maybe they are of a different species than the aquaria but it is interesting. I never added Chloramphenicol to my tank but the corals that I treated with it are doing great, it was a one time experiment for me but it worked so well that if I ever have problems i'm going to try it again. These infections are rare for me, Ive also seen people with corals that decline and no matter what they do they do they just die, I wonder if they simply have a bateria/ciliate infection and if this would be a good solution for people to try. I also wonder what types of antibiotics were used in the experiment on Acropora. Its so interesting to me, the closest I will ever get to being a doctor haha
next time I have an infection I'm going to take a sample and see if I can identify the pathogen, I wonder if the bacteria or Ciliates are to blame for me

 

[John bryant]

What was the dosage you used to dip the corals

 

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shoot its been a while since I used dips. If I use antibiotics I dip in peroxide and treat it in a 10 gallon tank with antibiotics. seems to work better

 

[MnFish1]

shoot its been a while since I used dips. If I use antibiotics I dip in peroxide and treat it in a 10 gallon tank with antibiotics. seems to work better

I think its been pretty well shown (and makes sense) - that antibiotic dips do not help - but - a hospital tank - with antibiotics should - thats based on bacterial physiology

PS - I would not in any case use chloramphenicol - even if it was proven to kill every coral parasite. For various epidemiological and microbiologic reasons

 

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I think its been pretty well shown (and makes sense) - that antibiotic dips do not help - but - a hospital tank - with antibiotics should - thats based on bacterial physiology

PS - I would not in any case use chloramphenicol - even if it was proven to kill every coral parasite. For various epidemiological and microbiologic reasons

Well I cant even get it anymore. Was told that if I do get more use bleach to destroy it before i dump it.

 

[MnFish1]

Well I cant even get it anymore. Was told that if I do get more use bleach to destroy it before i dump it.

Yes - its not widely - if ever used - and - frankly shouldn't be. Its associated with all sorts of bad side effects - Its why I (have said) - using fluconazole, and other 'antibiotics/fungals/parasiticides' should be the last resort - rather than the first resort. BTW - this includes 'chemiclean' - which from everything I know Is an antibiotic. Antibiotic resistance is a huge deal -