CIPROFLOXACIN: IN CURING ANEMONES.

[Christopher Davis]

I've treated lots of anemones with cipro over the past years. Sometimes cipro works, sometimes it's useless. This week I experienced a situation where cipro was useless. Anemones made it through cipro just fine, then a month later both under came open mouth/deflating syndrome. They were unresponsive to cipro at that point. The hobbyist community needs to realize there are just as many viruses and bacterial species in the ocean as there are bacterial species that are impacted by cipro. There is no cover-all medicine out there for anemones, if biological pathogens truly are even the cause of their decline...

Naturally there isn’t a cure all option for anything , agreed.

 

[Cnidoblast]

I wonder if the cause of this disease is viral in some way as it seems to cause melting like sea star parvovirus causes sea stars to melt

 

[MnFish1]

The problem is - and its no offense to you at all - anemones do not ship/transfer well. So - There is no 'control here'. How much is cured by cipro and how much is cured by the anemone just getting better on its own. I (an again no offense to those that 'believe' in this method) do not know what a generic cipro treatment for anemone's would be treating - neither do those the espouse this idea. So - if the anemone survives great - but it might be luck - it may be cipro.

 

[MnFish1]

If the anemone 'pulls through' you will ascribe it to cipro. If it doesn't you will ascribe it to 'bad luck'. But you have no way to know whether the success is due to cipro or if the failure is due to a 'cipro failure'. It is irresponsible to use antibiotics in this way (IMHO)

 

[terri_ann]

Thank you for trying to save the beautiful blue anemone, and for your constant updates. I pray that we quickly find a treatment and protocol that works.

 

[MnFish1]

Thank you for trying to save the beautiful blue anemone, and for your constant updates. I pray that we quickly find a treatment and protocol that works.

Are we sure that something is wrong the anemone in question? Or is it shipping, condition related?

 

[Christopher Davis]

If the anemone 'pulls through' you will ascribe it to cipro. If it doesn't you will ascribe it to 'bad luck'. But you have no way to know whether the success is due to cipro or if the failure is due to a 'cipro failure'. It is irresponsible to use antibiotics in this way (IMHO)

No offense to you sir... but this method has defiantly saved anemones, the cause bacterial infections. Cipro is a wide range anti bio that can treat a multitude of these infections. As many people have used it on this thread an can agree. Not everyone understands it. And that’s the purpose of this thread. To educate and inform, I don’t recommend to anyone... to just shoot in the dark and run something that they have no idea about. Research is key.

 

[MnFish1]

No offense to you sir... but this method has defiantly saved anemones, the cause bacterial infections. Cipro is a wide range anti bio that can treat a multitude of these infections. As many people have used it on this thread an can agree. Not everyone understands it. And that’s the purpose of this thread. To educate and inform, I don’t recommend to any to just shoot in the dark and run something that they have no idea about. Research is key.

Based on what? You are recommending 'shooting in the dark'. There is no evidence that this method has saved anemones over doing nothing. Because there is no controlled study. I am well aware of what cipro is and isn't. You have no evidence the the anemone in question is suffering from a bacterial infection. My guess is that many on the thread have lost anemones treated in this manner. I have had a great haddoni anemone that was probably 2 feet in diameter that was never treated with cipro. There is simply no evidence for this.

 

[Christopher Davis]

Based on what? You are recommending 'shooting in the dark'. There is no evidence that this method has saved anemones over doing nothing. Because there is no controlled study. I am well aware of what cipro is and isn't. You have no evidence the the anemone in question is suffering from a bacterial infection. My guess is that many on the thread have lost anemones treated in this manner. I have had a great haddoni anemone that was probably 2 feet in diameter that was never treated with cipro. There is simply no evidence for this.

Alright man because you aquired a healthy specimen and have kept it healthy doesn’t mean anything either. If you go back an re read this thread... and why it was originally created was to see if cipro could save my anemone. There is no room for negatively on this thread. I respect your opinions. But many people have struggled keeping these anemones. As there are multiple threads created in regards to this. Here is an opportunity to learn from one another, and not discredit someone’s efforts.

 

[MnFish1]

Alright man because you aquired a healthy specimen and have kept it healthy doesn’t mean anything either. If you go back an re read this thread... and why it was originally created was to see if cipro could save my anemone. There is no room for negatively on this thread. I respect your opinions. But many people have struggled keeping these anemones. As there are multiple threads created in regards to this. Here is an opportunity to learn from one another, and not discredit someone’s efforts.

All I want is a bacteria that Cipro is treating. And I'm certainly not being 'negative'. There is a difference between 'realism' and 'negativity'. If there is a common bacterium that is somehow affecting anemones being shipped from (wherever) all good. If the issue is that anemones are fragile after being shipped - and some live and some die - then adding cipro makes no difference - its the luck of the draw. Again this is not being 'negative' - this is being 'realistic'.

 

[MnFish1]

All I want is a bacteria that Cipro is treating. And I'm certainly not being 'negative'. There is a difference between 'realism' and 'negativity'. If there is a common bacterium that is somehow affecting anemones being shipped from (wherever) all good. If the issue is that anemones are fragile after being shipped - and some live and some die - then adding cipro makes no difference - its the luck of the draw. Again this is not being 'negative' - this is being 'realistic'.

BTW. I also will say - I think it may be different acquiring a specimen from 'online' vs at a LFS. I think many specimens acquired online are in poor condition after shipping. and I think its a 'crapshoot' as to whether they will survive with or without cipro.

 

[EmdeReef]

If the anemone 'pulls through' you will ascribe it to cipro. If it doesn't you will ascribe it to 'bad luck'. But you have no way to know whether the success is due to cipro or if the failure is due to a 'cipro failure'. It is irresponsible to use antibiotics in this way (IMHO)

You have the right to your own opinion and needless to say to guide your actions by that. However, there are more than enough fairly adequate studies into treatments of bacterial and parasitic diseases of cnidarians by antibiotics that we would be negligent to ignore.

Notwithstanding many issues, such as proper diagnosis, medication purity and the stage of a disease. Of course proper collection and a plethora of other factors play a role. Although, let’s face it this hobby wouldn’t exist if we were solely relying on proper collection and handling...

We would need very robust research into the issue to prove the effectiveness of Cipro vs immunity or another antibiotic once a condition was accurately diagnosed. Unfortunately, anemones aren’t commercially viable beyond the aquarium trade and such research costs tens of millions and in case of human medicines can easily reach or exceed a billion.

 

[Christopher Davis]

Are we sure that something is wrong the anemone in question? Or is it shipping, condition related?

Yes shipping

All I want is a bacteria that Cipro is treating. And I'm certainly not being 'negative'. There is a difference between 'realism' and 'negativity'. If there is a common bacterium that is somehow affecting anemones being shipped from (wherever) all good. If the issue is that anemones are fragile after being shipped - and some live and some die - then adding cipro makes no difference - its the luck of the draw. Again this is not being 'negative' - this is being 'realistic'.

I’m not in disagreement here, shipping certainly plays a roll if not plays all of it. Every single specimen is different just like people. For me if you get sick, we’ll you take meds at least to help. Yes it’s more specific and easy to diagnose in humans, but the ocean has just as many bacterial and viral infections that can be induced from shipping and poor handling. And yes half the time it’s luck. If anything it’s a preventative measure, whether there is solid concrete evidence or not. For me I would take the risk with cipro any day to try and save something than just stand idle and watch a specimen meet its demise.

 

[MnFish1]

You have the right to your own opinion and needless to say to guide your actions by that. However, there are more than enough fairly adequate studies into treatments of bacterial and parasitic diseases of cnidarians by antibiotics that we would be negligent to ignore.

Notwithstanding many issues, such as proper diagnosis, medication purity and the stage of a disease. Of course proper collection and a plethora of other factors play a role. Although, let’s face it this hobby wouldn’t exist if we were solely relying on proper collection and handling...

We would need very robust research into the issue to prove the effectiveness of Cipro vs immunity or another antibiotic once a condition was accurately diagnosed. Unfortunately, anemones aren’t commercially viable beyond the aquarium trade and such research costs tens of millions and in case of human medicines can easily reach or exceed a billion.

I apologize. I dont understand your point. You dont quote the 'fairly adequate studies into treatments of bacterial and parasitic cnidarians'. I also dont understand your point about costing billions of dollars (though I think I get it in part). If people want to treat anemones with cipro - I dont care. But - to suggest that there is some proof that cipro is a miracle cure for anemones - is ridiculous (apologies to those that ascribe to this philosophy)

 

[EmdeReef]

BTW. I also will say - I think it may be different acquiring a specimen from 'online' vs at a LFS. I think many specimens acquired online are in poor condition after shipping. and I think its a 'crapshoot' as to whether they will survive with or without cipro.

There would be very little difference between online or brick and mortar stores unless you had some sort of a reliable guarantee of longevity of a specimen in question in its captive environment.

Unfortunately, most carpet anemones don’t survive more than 3-5weeks in captivity for many reasons we don’t understand. Every time we buy one we take a gamble of whether the specimen in question is in its 1st;2nd or 5th week of captive lifespan...

 

[terri_ann]

Are we sure that something is wrong the anemone in question? Or is it shipping, condition related?

I do not know. As a hobbyist and retailer, i know that the collection and shipping process is very, very stressful to say the least. I hate seeing or hearing of any animal dying. Yes, i know death is inevitable but i hate it. Anyway, there are things in our oceans that i believe should stay there because of the mortality we see when collected. However, with the devastation we see with reefs, i also believe we need to try to understand, practice sustainability and all the other things needed to learn, and eventually be experts at saving our oceans, reefs and aquatic life. I have my opinions but they are just that, mine. I cannot say what is right or wrong, with this anemone or what should or should not be done. The anemone was collected and shipped so when it started to show signs of poor health, it was the owner's decision as to what, if anything, would be done. I am very thankful that he tried to help it since his decision was the anemone was sick.

 

[EmdeReef]

I apologize. I dont understand your point. You dont quote the 'fairly adequate studies into treatments of bacterial and parasitic cnidarians'. I also dont understand your point about costing billions of dollars (though I think I get it in part). If people want to treat anemones with cipro - I dont care. But - to suggest that there is some proof that cipro is a miracle cure for anemones - is ridiculous (apologies to those that ascribe to this philosophy)

Well perhaps you should quote studies disproving that antibiotics work on bacterial infections and some parasitic diseases and then we can have an intelligent discussion. As of now you’re stating your opinion and you’re entitled to believe whatever you want...

 

[MnFish1]

Yes shipping

I’m not in disagreement here, shipping certainly plays a roll if not plays all of it. Every single specimen is different just like people. For me if you get sick, we’ll you take meds at least to help. Yes it’s more specific and easy to diagnose in humans, but the ocean has just as many bacterial and viral infections that can be induced from shipping and poor handling. And yes half the time it’s luck. If anything it’s a preventative measure, whether there is solid concrete evidence or not. For me I would take the risk with cipro any day to try and save something than just stand idle and watch a specimen meet its demise.

Thanks - the problem is that - to assume that ever time an anemone has a gaping mouth requires ciprofloxacin seems silly. Cipro doesn't do anything to affect 'viral infections'. And this is no offense to you because you make a valid point about 'trying to save a living creature'. I do not think its appropriate to randomly treat anything with antibiotics in this era where human doctors are limiting quinolone usage due to antibiotic resistance that affects human beings. If you dont have a documented reason to treat an anemone with cipro you should not do it. (IMHO). And I guarantee you there is no documented reason (that I have seen)

 

[MnFish1]

Well perhaps you should quote studies disproving that antibiotics work on bacterial infections and some parasitic diseases and then we can have an intelligent discussion. As of now you’re stating your opinion and you’re entitled to believe whatever you want...

Sorry. Google Kochs postulates and see how it works. in case you dont want to do that here is the definition: Koch's postulates are as follows: The bacteria must be present in every case of the disease. The bacteria must be isolated from the host with the disease and grown in pure culture. The specific disease must be reproduced when a pure culture of the bacteria is inoculated into a healthy susceptible host.

So. before you go recommending that a certain 'disease' (which we aren't even sure exists - i.e. every 'unhealthy appearing anemone') be treated with an antibiotic (that normally requires a prescription from a person with an advanced degree) at least in humans - I suggest that you do a bit of research

 

[EmdeReef]

Thanks - the problem is that - to assume that ever time an anemone has a gaping mouth requires ciprofloxacin seems silly. Cipro doesn't do anything to affect 'viral infections'. And this is no offense to you because you make a valid point about 'trying to save a living creature'. I do not think its appropriate to randomly treat anything with antibiotics in this era where human doctors are limiting quinolone usage due to antibiotic resistance that affects human beings. If you dont have a documented reason to treat an anemone with cipro you should not do it. (IMHO). And I guarantee you there is no documented reason (that I have seen)

I would say you need to read through the post (I.e. best available facts) before making conclusion that it was a mysterious viral infection.

The anemone was responding well to treatment but for a coupe of mishaps I.e a pump and heater failures.

Just a few decades ago before we had the diagnostic equipment we have now we used to treat for common symptoms almost prophylactically just to rule out conditions, and in modern medicine more oft than many are willing to admit we do prescribe treatments in hope a patient will respond as many times we are not 100% sure.

Your option appears to be to try nothing as almost nobody will be able to properly diagnose an anemone, and again you are entitled to your opinion...good luck!