Close to giving up on SPS

[nereefpat]

On the topic of trace elements, I would *think that using a calcium reactor makes dosing many of those even less needed.

 

[WRLR]

I carry out 10% water changes weekly. I will carry out a couple of large changes over the weekend to dilute the metals.

That looks like a good plan

I read so much online saying flourine is important and not to use Triton ICP because it doesn't test for flourine. Since adding it I've seen no difference to be fair.

If you can't find scientific info on elements that are important then ignore anything anyone else says(meaning vendors). I have yet to see any proof some random element is important for our acros that no one knows about.

When you say 'trace element soup" I take it you are referring to the all in one/two part trace elements?

I define soup as a product that contains a handful of elements combined in a bottle or an line of 8-10 elements each in it's own bottle. Anything you do or add to your tank you should be able to turn on/ off to prove it does something of benefit. If you go down this road test only one element at a time and see if there is any benefit or not. I would stick to the traces that are already known to be a biological benefit.

Also 'knowing which elements' to dose is the key and I try to do this through ICP, but you are saying my metals are high and the test has them measured under the recommended levels? How can you know which element is either over or under if you cannot trust the ICP?

This question is better directed to Fauna, Moonshiners. Triton ect., but to me, I'm not trusting the accuracy of anything a hobby related monthly ICP test is telling me to dose when it comes to minor trace elements. If you trust ICP use the amount that is found in natural seawater as your targets and only test one at a time.

Understood! Thanks for 'turning the light on' Big E. I really appreciate your help with this.

 

[WRLR]

On the topic of trace elements, I would *think that using a calcium reactor makes dosing many of those even less needed.

I use Dastaco procalk pure media that is not meant to disrupt trace elements.

 

[jda]

I might do a few larger water changes to hit the rest or reboot button. After that, 10% a week is totally fine.

The old adage not to dose anything that you cannot test for is probably still good. I don't mean ICP, but I mean you. As a rule, there are test kits for things that might actually matter... so like iron or magnesium... and not so much for things like arsenic, fluorine, etc. FWIW, I test for alk about once a week, phosphate about the same (using Hannah Ultra Low) and that is about it. The rest will be taken care of with the water changes and calcium reactor and since I am not going to dose them, I don't test for them. The only exception to this is that I do glug in a little bit of iron if I miss some water changes since my chaeto will slow down if I don't.

I strongly suggest that you tune your CaRx not to use a regulator, probe or the like. You can get them to where they just run 24/7 and are really solid, stable and not likely to fail. There is a paper in my signature that kinda outlines it - a bit messy since I am not a tech writer. If you have one of the automatic type of regulators then I have no idea how to deal with those.

I would not carbon dose in a reef tank. I don't. I would try and export with skimmers, multiple if necessary, and a fuge. If this does not work long term, then maybe some light organic carbon might be OK, but it is still best used by really strong reefers who can see what is happening in their tank with acute precision.

On the topic of supplements, some add in heavy metals to kill off zoox to make colors grow more or to increase contrast. A biologist once equated this to coral chemotherapy. As Ed has covered, the rest are likely adding things that nobody knows if they help or not. ...so just avoid them other than maybe Iron or Iodate for the acute purposes that I outlined before.

If you use aragonite or calcite for CaRx media, they provide more trace elements than man-made media.

If you get seduced by the glowing photos, just take photos of your tank and learn how to work light room or photoshop. Most of those are not real, so don't chase them too much. Most of the best tanks that I know about mostly just do the basics and don't add many, if any, supplements.

 

[WRLR]

I might do a few larger water changes to hit the rest or reboot button. After that, 10% a week is totally fine.

The old adage not to dose anything that you cannot test for is probably still good. I don't mean ICP, but I mean you. As a rule, there are test kits for things that might actually matter... so like iron or magnesium... and not so much for things like arsenic, fluorine, etc. FWIW, I test for alk about once a week, phosphate about the same (using Hannah Ultra Low) and that is about it. The rest will be taken care of with the water changes and calcium reactor and since I am not going to dose them, I don't test for them. The only exception to this is that I do glug in a little bit of iron if I miss some water changes since my chaeto will slow down if I don't.

I strongly suggest that you tune your CaRx not to use a regulator, probe or the like. You can get them to where they just run 24/7 and are really solid, stable and not likely to fail. There is a paper in my signature that kinda outlines it - a bit messy since I am not a tech writer. If you have one of the automatic type of regulators then I have no idea how to deal with those.

I would not carbon dose in a reef tank. I don't. I would try and export with skimmers, multiple if necessary, and a fuge. If this does not work long term, then maybe some light organic carbon might be OK, but it is still best used by really strong reefers who can see what is happening in their tank with acute precision.

On the topic of supplements, some add in heavy metals to kill off zoox to make colors grow more or to increase contrast. A biologist once equated this to coral chemotherapy. As Ed has covered, the rest are likely adding things that nobody knows if they help or not. ...so just avoid them other than maybe Iron or Iodate for the acute purposes that I outlined before.

If you use aragonite or calcite for CaRx media, they provide more trace elements than man-made media.

If you get seduced by the glowing photos, just take photos of your tank and learn how to work light room or photoshop. Most of those are not real, so don't chase them too much. Most of the best tanks that I know about mostly just do the basics and don't add many, if any, supplements.

We've got a four day bank holiday coming up this weekend in the UK. I will do some large water changes.

I do run a refugium with chaeto so I'll look at an iron test. Hanna do one I think. I'll keep an eye on my nutrient export once the regular water changes have settled down.

I have a Dastaco reactor with an integra controller that sets and controls the alk . I also dose kalk to keep my PH up due to the use of C02. I might be able to drop this if the water changes bring up the PH. I'll have a read of your paper though.

Good idea on the pictures. I'll keep the ones of my sick coral to remind me next time I get tempted.

 

[jda]

As for the water changes. There are charts out there to help with calcium chloride, if you need it. Just wait a day to retest.

For lowering alk, muriatic acid works great and is cheap. It needs to be handled safely, but it is not death in a bottle or anything. Gallons * desired dKh drop * .123 is the amount of MLs to use. Again, wait a day for the pH to come back up and test again.

A little bit of fine tuning once or twice and you will know your recipe. It is a worthwhile 15-20 minutes spread out over a few days.

You can get lab grade type of stuff if driveway melt and pool acidifier is not your deal. I have used it for a long time and never had any issues, so I just keep on using it... probably a bit dogmatic.

 

[homer1475]

For lowering alk, muriatic acid works great and is cheap. It needs to be handled safely, but it is not death in a bottle or anything. Gallons * desired dKh drop * .123 is the amount of MLs to use. Again, wait a day for the pH to come back up and test again.

A little bit of fine tuning once or twice and you will know your recipe. It is a worthwhile 15-20 minutes spread out over a few days.

Been using IO for decades, best bang for my buck. Have been "doctoring" up just as @jda has, and know my "recipe". Once you do it a few times, it's a simple to get your "recipe".

 

[ZombieEngineer]

Can you scoop out some of the brown sludge of your acros and look at it under a microscope? Possible that dinos are to blame.

 

[WRLR]

As for the water changes. There are charts out there to help with calcium chloride, if you need it. Just wait a day to retest.

For lowering alk, muriatic acid works great and is cheap. It needs to be handled safely, but it is not death in a bottle or anything. Gallons * desired dKh drop * .123 is the amount of MLs to use. Again, wait a day for the pH to come back up and test again.

A little bit of fine tuning once or twice and you will know your recipe. It is a worthwhile 15-20 minutes spread out over a few days.

You can get lab grade type of stuff if driveway melt and pool acidifier is not your deal. I have used it for a long time and never had any issues, so I just keep on using it... probably a bit dogmatic.

Perfect! I'll experiment with this before my current bucket of TMC runs out.

Thanks again.

 

[WRLR]

Been using IO for decades, best bang for my buck. Have been "doctoring" up just as @jda has, and know my "recipe". Once you do it a few times, it's a simple to get your "recipe".

I used to use it but stopped because of the alk/calcium levels. This solves that issue.

 

[WRLR]

Can you scoop out some of the brown sludge of your acros and look at it under a microscope? Possible that dinos are to blame.

There are no dinos on the rock or sandbed, but I know what you mean. There is a film on some of them that does look like dinos.

 

[ZombieEngineer]

There are no dinos on the rock or sandbed, but I know what you mean. There is a film on some of them that does look like dinos.

Worth a check anyway. Can rule it out with the paper towel test too if you don't have a microscope.

 

[WRLR]

Worth a check anyway. Can rule it out with the paper towel test too if you don't have a microscope.

Good point. I can do the paper towel test. Thanks for your help.

 

[jda]

I used to use it but stopped because of the alk/calcium levels. This solves that issue.

If you get a 44g brute for a mixing station, it works perfectly with a 50g bag of IO or RC. You can mix up 44g at a time, doctor it and then keep the pump running until you need it. The IO with the acid does not leave any residue or crud in my brute.

I like to use the whole bag so that I don't to worry about dry mixing salt. I watched the BRS video but have plenty of experience to know that salt does settle and you can get inconsistent batches if you do not dry mix the salt.

 

[WRLR]

If you get a 44g brute for a mixing station, it works perfectly with a 50g bag of IO or RC. You can mix up 44g at a time, doctor it and then keep the pump running until you need it. The IO with the acid does not leave any residue or crud in my brute.

I like to use the whole bag so that I don't to worry about dry mixing salt. I watched the BRS video but have plenty of experience to know that salt does settle and you can get inconsistent batches if you do not dry mix the salt.

What salinity does that mix give you?

 

[jda]

35 ppt with the water all the way up to the top.

 

[WRLR]

If you get a 44g brute for a mixing station, it works perfectly with a 50g bag of IO or RC. You can mix up 44g at a time, doctor it and then keep the pump running until you need it. The IO with the acid does not leave any residue or crud in my brute.

I like to use the whole bag so that I don't to worry about dry mixing salt. I watched the BRS video but have plenty of experience to know that salt does settle and you can get inconsistent batches if you do not dry mix the salt.

This is going to take a little trial and error because you can't get the 50g bags of IO salt in the UK. I can get the 44g Brute, but I think I will get a smaller container that matches a bag size I can get here and Mrs R might not like the new mixing station decorations!!!!!

Thanks again. I really appreciate the guidance at this time. My enthusiasm is rising.

 

[jmichaelh7]

go back to the basics bro

Water changes and keeping the params stable as possible particularly DKH

The flow keep is cranked up and light consistent. dont make any changes and forget about it.

I would watch your phosphates to ensure they are .03-.08 . i've seen the best PE when everything is stable for a PERIOD of time and no fluctuations

 

[Roli's Reef Ranch]

I have over 30 years of keeping saltwater tanks and at least 25 of those in reef keeping, but I am now at a loss. My SPS have been dying off 1 by 1 over the last 4 months. I'm so frustrated and frankly close to throwing in the towel. So I thought I would open this up to the reefing community as see if we can try and solve this before I crack!!!

My tank is a 3 year old Red Sea 625xxl. It has 3 Radion XR15's and an Aquaticlife T5 with 4 58w bulbs (2 blue plus, 1 coral plus and 1 purple plus). Radions are Gen 4 and the T5 bulbs are replaced annually. The LEDs are on for 11 hours on AB+ and the T5's kick in for 4 hours during the peak light. Water movement is 4 Neros 5's and a Gyre which runs for the same 4 hours as the T5s. Also the return pump. It has a mix of live rock and dry rock (added after) The tank also has a shallow sand bed (visual and for wrasses).

Perameters:

PH - 7.9 low to 8.2 high
Salinity 34.5ppt
Temp 76.4 to 77
KH 8 -8.5
Calcium 437
Mag 1410
N03 4.9
P04 0.06 does drift to 0.1 without GFO


I had a Fauna Marin ICP Total Test done recently and attach the results. I have modified some of the traces since (Flourine in particular).

It looks like a bacterial infection to me and I can only think of 3 events that may have caused/triggered this. I wonder also if I have made this worse as I have been dosing more bacteria (Biodigest) in the last couple of months to try and get the good bacteria up.

1) About 3 months ago I had a solenoid on my calcium reactor fail and the contents of my C02 bottle got dumped into my thriving SPS tank. This dropped the PH to around 4 and I was only alerted by the reactor alarm going off because the gas bottle was empty. Now I have PH Monitoring in place.......

2) I bought some mariculture frags. I dipped them before placing in the tank. A couple of these went first.

3) The ICP attached identifies issues with the RO water, but not anything that is affecting the tank water analysis. Unless I am missing something.

Another area I've looked at is predation. I can see no pests. I have a dwarf parrot but I think it would be obvious if that was munching down coral. Although I think he might be nibbling the nana from the pictures.

I've attached some pictures.

Help much appreciated before I loose the plot!!!

I know you know what you're doing, and everything you mentioned looks just fine. You have a big tank, so I understand why you're running a calcium reactor. If it were me, and it isn't, I'd get rid of the reactor to raise up your PH, start dosing Kalk (especially at night with your dosing pump), and 2 part. I think you may be amazed at the results. I think there is going to be a big move away from calcium reactors in the next couple of years. I have two of them in the junk pile. Yes, they can work, but the suppressed PH is never optimal. Just my 2 cents. Wish you the best of luck. Hang in there!

 

[WRLR]

go back to the basics bro

Water changes and keeping the params stable as possible particularly DKH

The flow keep is cranked up and light consistent. dont make any changes and forget about it.

I would watch your phosphates to ensure they are .03-.08 . i've seen the best PE when everything is stable for a PERIOD of time and no fluctuations

Thanks buds. Going back to the basics. Large water change followed by weekly changes. Think I'm going to change my gyre for an MP40 and move a couple of the Nero 5s to the back panel to really provide some interesting flow.