Close to giving up on SPS

[WRLR]

I have over 30 years of keeping saltwater tanks and at least 25 of those in reef keeping, but I am now at a loss. My SPS have been dying off 1 by 1 over the last 4 months. I'm so frustrated and frankly close to throwing in the towel. So I thought I would open this up to the reefing community as see if we can try and solve this before I crack!!!

My tank is a 3 year old Red Sea 625xxl. It has 3 Radion XR15's and an Aquaticlife T5 with 4 58w bulbs (2 blue plus, 1 coral plus and 1 purple plus). Radions are Gen 4 and the T5 bulbs are replaced annually. The LEDs are on for 11 hours on AB+ and the T5's kick in for 4 hours during the peak light. Water movement is 4 Neros 5's and a Gyre which runs for the same 4 hours as the T5s. Also the return pump. It has a mix of live rock and dry rock (added after) The tank also has a shallow sand bed (visual and for wrasses).

Perameters:

PH - 7.9 low to 8.2 high
Salinity 34.5ppt
Temp 76.4 to 77
KH 8 -8.5
Calcium 437
Mag 1410
N03 4.9
P04 0.06 does drift to 0.1 without GFO


I had a Fauna Marin ICP Total Test done recently and attach the results. I have modified some of the traces since (Flourine in particular).

It looks like a bacterial infection to me and I can only think of 3 events that may have caused/triggered this. I wonder also if I have made this worse as I have been dosing more bacteria (Biodigest) in the last couple of months to try and get the good bacteria up.

1) About 3 months ago I had a solenoid on my calcium reactor fail and the contents of my C02 bottle got dumped into my thriving SPS tank. This dropped the PH to around 4 and I was only alerted by the reactor alarm going off because the gas bottle was empty. Now I have PH Monitoring in place.......

2) I bought some mariculture frags. I dipped them before placing in the tank. A couple of these went first.

3) The ICP attached identifies issues with the RO water, but not anything that is affecting the tank water analysis. Unless I am missing something.

Another area I've looked at is predation. I can see no pests. I have a dwarf parrot but I think it would be obvious if that was munching down coral. Although I think he might be nibbling the nana from the pictures.

I've attached some pictures.

Help much appreciated before I loose the plot!!!

 

[Forty-Two]

Im sorry to see/hear that you're sps are dying.

Im not experienced in a situation like this - but what I would guess is that the sudden drop in dkh either wiped out or damaged some of your bacterial culture, stressed the corals and created an environment where infection can thrive.

Unfortunately I dont have any good solid advice, Maybe look at Aqua Forest Life Source to try to re-start the baceterial culture/improve the situation. Its a long shot and I cant begin to guess what might help, but its a thought.

 

[Clownreef]

why do you cut the flow down to only 4 hours? Let it rip. SPS love flow..

 

[WRLR]

why do you cut the flow down to only 4 hours? Let it rip. SPS love flow..

It just that the gyre is on the same timer as the T5's. The 4 Neros are on for 12 hours.

 

[Vinman]

I agree I would definitely crank the current up and get a different timer if you have to. Also go around and cut frags of healthy pieces of SPS that are left you will be able to actually see some improvement if things are getting better on the new frags. If the frags start growing then you can go back and clean up all the old colonies removing some death and saving what you can. Also you got to keep a close eye on your alkalinity once things start receding your usage will be less

 

[The Farmer]

I believe the temp needs to be Raised. Bacteria populates faster in warmer temp. I keep my temp between 78-80

 

[The Farmer]

Also my no3 is between 10-15

 

[jsker]

#reefsquad

 

[nereefpat]

This reef squad guy isn't an SPS expert. Bump up for those who are.

My advice would be very basic and not novel. That CO2 incident is likely still showing effect. Make sure you are checking salinity with a recently calibrated, with saltwater standard, refractometer or floating glass hydrometer. I would run the T5 for 6 hours instead 4. I also would always run the pumps.

Also, bump for @Big E and @jda

 

[The Farmer]

Is there really a reef squad?

 

[eraser2001]

Question
When did issue start? After you problem with co2, after mariculture frags, add trace elements

 

[WRLR]

This reef squad guy isn't an SPS expert. Bump up for those who are.

My advice would be very basic and not novel. That CO2 incident is likely still showing effect. Make sure you are checking salinity with a recently calibrated, with saltwater standard, refractometer or floating glass hydrometer. I would run the T5 for 6 hours instead 4. I also would always run the pumps.

Also, bump for @Big E and @jda

Thanks nereefpat. I check salinity with refractometer, hydrometer and Hanna. The first two are a bit of a lottery with my eyesight and the hanna is unreliable. I rely on ICP for actual salinity readings. I'll increase the T5 for 6 hours and ramp up the flow.

I have no idea what or how to bump?

 

[WRLR]

Question
When did issue start? After you problem with co2, after mariculture frags, add trace elements

Difficult to say as I'd lost a couple of mariculture frags before the C02 incident. After the C02 incident, the mariculture frags suffered first although I still have a few that seem fine. fingers crossed.

I do add trace elements.

 

[Big E]

Difficult to say as I'd lost a couple of mariculture frags before the C02 incident. After the C02 incident, the mariculture frags suffered first although I still have a few that seem fine. fingers crossed.

I do add trace elements.

Your metals are all higher than normal..........that stuck out immediately on your test. Stop dosing all trace elements. Trace metals are poison above very low levels. Most ICP tests will read zero on most of them as they are below detection limit of the test. Start doing a water change regime.............this will get you back to a base that is normal.

I would not have adjusted the Flouride............it isn't known as critical for SPS health nor do I believe that test is accurate.

Imo, dosing a trace element soup based off ICP tests is a bad road to travel. One should know which elements are actually helping and be able to turn off/on an actual cause effect relationship. That means only dosing one at a time measuring and monitoring results.

I'm confused by this quote----
"3) The ICP attached identifies issues with the RO water, but not anything that is affecting the tank water analysis. Unless I am missing something."

Is the test you posted from your tank or the RO water? If it is the RO water replace everything from pre filters, RO membrane and DI. An ICP test of RO should read zeros across the board.

Wait at least 6 weeks than try a few new healthy acro frags. Make sure the frags are WYSIWYG and are healthy looking with good polyp extension. It would be even better to buy some local frags you can see in person. How these new frags do will be the best way to see if your system is back on track.

I'm a little confused by the timeline of when you put in the maricultured frags. Obviously as mentioned, that ph crash is bad. Corals can lag for a month or two before they actually start dying from events as this but you should have noticed poor polyp extension and dry look on the corals prior.

I agree with the flow and T5 suggestions.

You'll need to be patient as those struggling corals will take 3-6 months to recover if they do survive.

 

[WRLR]

Your metals are all higher than normal..........that stuck out immediately on your test. Stop dosing all trace elements. Trace metals are poison above very low levels. Most ICP tests will read zero on most of them as they are below detection limit of the test. Start doing a water change regime.............this will get you back to a base that is normal.

I would not have adjusted the Flouride............it isn't known as critical for SPS health nor do I believe that test is accurate.

Imo, dosing a trace element soup based off ICP tests is a bad road to travel. One should know which elements are actually helping and be able to turn off/on an actual cause effect relationship. That means only dosing one at a time measuring and monitoring results.

I'm confused by this quote----
"3) The ICP attached identifies issues with the RO water, but not anything that is affecting the tank water analysis. Unless I am missing something."

Is the test you posted from your tank or the RO water? If it is the RO water replace everything from pre filters, RO membrane and DI. An ICP test of RO should read zeros across the board.

Wait at least 6 weeks than try a few new healthy acro frags. Make sure the frags are WYSIWYG and are healthy looking with good polyp extension. It would be even better to buy some local frags you can see in person. How these new frags do will be the best way to see if your system is back on track.

I'm a little confused by the timeline of when you put in the maricultured frags. Obviously as mentioned, that ph crash is bad. Corals can lag for a month or two before they actually start dying from events as this but you should have noticed poor polyp extension and dry look on the corals prior.

I agree with the flow and T5 suggestions.

You'll need to be patient as those struggling corals will take 3-6 months to recover if they do survive.

Thanks Big E. Really appreciate your help. Just a couple of questions/clarifications.

I carry out 10% water changes weekly. I will carry out a couple of large changes over the weekend to dilute the metals.

I read so much online saying flourine is important and not to use Triton ICP because it doesn't test for flourine. Since adding it I've seen no difference to be fair.

When you say 'trace element soup" I take it you are referring to the all in one/two part trace elements?

Also 'knowing which elements' to dose is the key and I try to do this through ICP, but you are saying my metals are high and the test has them measured under the recommended levels? How can you know which element is either over or under if you cannot trust the ICP?

The RO was at the bottom of the ICP and I have already taken the measures you suggested.

Maricultured frags went in the tank in November 21. and the C02 incident was late February 22. I had noticed a small amount of STN just before the C02 incident and tried treating it with Triton RTN Stop, without success and ended up fragging the tips of these two corals. These are still fine. I never noticed any poor polyp extention or any dry look.

T5 and flow recommendations have been implemented.

Hard to be patient when every day you see another victim in the tank.

Thanks again.

 

[jda]

Change water. Dose the big 2/3 and keep them mostly stable. Add nothing from a bottle. Feed your fish a good amount and export enough with skimmers, fuges, etc. to keep your no3 and po4 from climbing.

If you grow chaeto or other macro, you might have to add some iron. If you have a massive amount of shrimp, then they might need some iodate. The rest can all be added from the salt mix... and if you change water enough,

Never believe anything that a manufacturer tells you. If Dr. RHF or the like says that XYZ is important, then sure... but if Red Sea says that Red Sea ABC is important, then just ignore them. BRS is not any better, IME. Stick to advice from people with no skin in the game.

I am not sure that ICP has helped the hobby. They are so inaccurate and most of what they test for has no known setpoint. Most get one back and do this-or-that which can hurt as much as it helps. Has there ever been a smoking gun? I would not do any more ICP tests... spend that money on a Box of IO, or your favorite salt, change 150-200 gallons of water over the next few months and things should look up. The salt mixes have levels that are known to work... at least with most name-brand salts.

IMO, getting good at doing your WCs with acid to make the alk perfect, adding CaCl to make the calcium perfect for you is a better use of energy than nearly anything else. Once you figure out how to do it, it just takes a second. For me, it is a whole bag of IO into a 44g brute with cold RODI with 2 tbsp of dowflake (to raise calcium), mix for a day and heat, add 20mls of muriatic acid (to lower alk), mix for another day or two to get the pH back up. I figured this out a long time ago and it still works to make perfect water for my tank. Some think that is too much effort, but there is not much that you can do that will effect your tank in a more positive way.

The victims might keep coming... like how it takes 100 miles to turn around an oil tanker. It sucks, but if you are doing the right things, you have to have some faith... but it can be really hard.

 

[arafas]

Honestly stop dosing all these things if you are, Just stick to one thing at a time. SPS can take weeks to show effect. Leave the flow on all the time. Honestly I wouldnt buy anything until you are on top of things. Sometimes leaving it alone is better then sticking your hands in constantly, I learned that the hard way. Now i just check my parameters make sure they are good and let it be, simplicity sometimes is better.

 

[WRLR]

Change water. Dose the big 2/3 and keep them mostly stable. Add nothing from a bottle. Feed your fish a good amount and export enough with skimmers, fuges, etc. to keep your no3 and po4 from climbing.

If you grow chaeto or other macro, you might have to add some iron. If you have a massive amount of shrimp, then they might need some iodate. The rest can all be added from the salt mix... and if you change water enough,

Never believe anything that a manufacturer tells you. If Dr. RHF or the like says that XYZ is important, then sure... but if Red Sea says that Red Sea ABC is important, then just ignore them. BRS is not any better, IME. Stick to advice from people with no skin in the game.

I am not sure that ICP has helped the hobby. They are so inaccurate and most of what they test for has no known setpoint. Most get one back and do this-or-that which can hurt as much as it helps. Has there ever been a smoking gun? I would not do any more ICP tests... spend that money on a Box of IO, or your favorite salt, change 150-200 gallons of water over the next few months and things should look up. The salt mixes have levels that are known to work... at least with most name-brand salts.

IMO, getting good at doing your WCs with acid to make the alk perfect, adding CaCl to make the calcium perfect for you is a better use of energy than nearly anything else. Once you figure out how to do it, it just takes a second. For me, it is a whole bag of IO into a 44g brute with cold RODI with 2 tbsp of dowflake (to raise calcium), mix for a day and heat, add 20mls of muriatic acid (to lower alk), mix for another day or two to get the pH back up. I figured this out a long time ago and it still works to make perfect water for my tank. Some think that is too much effort, but there is not much that you can do that will effect your tank in a more positive way.

The victims might keep coming... like how it takes 100 miles to turn around an oil tanker. It sucks, but if you are doing the right things, you have to have some faith... but it can be really hard.

Thanks jda. I really appreciate learning from skilled reefers. I love the idea of simple. It's hard not to get seduced by the glowing sps pictures all over the net and ask yourself if the coral could look better if i just.......

How often are you recommending doing water changes and what volume of tank water? I use a calc reactor for calcium/alkalinity and dose mag when test tells me to. When you say add nothing from a bottle. Does that include carbon dosing?

Interesting points on how you prepare your make up water. I use Tropic Marin Pro, but used to use IO for years. I stopped because of the high alk levels and you will have to excuse me I'm no chemist but adding 'brick cleaner' and 'road salts' sounds like madness to me. But I suppose these are the chemicals that are being sold to us in any case. Just in a colourful bottle and a bright sps picture on the front. How do you calculate the dosage for these? I don't mind effort for a positive outcome.

 

[WRLR]

Honestly stop dosing all these things if you are, Just stick to one thing at a time. SPS can take weeks to show effect. Leave the flow on all the time. Honestly I wouldnt buy anything until you are on top of things. Sometimes leaving it alone is better then sticking your hands in constantly, I learned that the hard way. Now i just check my parameters make sure they are good and let it be, simplicity sometimes is better.

Thank Arafas. I know you're right but it's easier said than done. It's hard not to chase numbers. It's like a competition. Ill try and just focus on the big 2/3 only.

 

[Big E]

I carry out 10% water changes weekly. I will carry out a couple of large changes over the weekend to dilute the metals.

I read so much online saying flourine is important and not to use Triton ICP because it doesn't test for flourine. Since adding it I've seen no difference to be fair.

When you say 'trace element soup" I take it you are referring to the all in one/two part trace elements?

Also 'knowing which elements' to dose is the key and I try to do this through ICP, but you are saying my metals are high and the test has them measured under the recommended levels? How can you know which element is either over or under if you cannot trust the ICP?

I carry out 10% water changes weekly. I will carry out a couple of large changes over the weekend to dilute the metals.

That looks like a good plan

I read so much online saying flourine is important and not to use Triton ICP because it doesn't test for flourine. Since adding it I've seen no difference to be fair.

If you can't find scientific info on elements that are important then ignore anything anyone else says(meaning vendors). I have yet to see any proof some random element is important for our acros that no one knows about.

When you say 'trace element soup" I take it you are referring to the all in one/two part trace elements?

I define soup as a product that contains a handful of elements combined in a bottle or an line of 8-10 elements each in it's own bottle. Anything you do or add to your tank you should be able to turn on/ off to prove it does something of benefit. If you go down this road test only one element at a time and see if there is any benefit or not. I would stick to the traces that are already known to be a biological benefit.

Also 'knowing which elements' to dose is the key and I try to do this through ICP, but you are saying my metals are high and the test has them measured under the recommended levels? How can you know which element is either over or under if you cannot trust the ICP?

This question is better directed to Fauna, Moonshiners. Triton ect., but to me, I'm not trusting the accuracy of anything a hobby related monthly ICP test is telling me to dose when it comes to minor trace elements. If you trust ICP use the amount that is found in natural seawater as your targets and only test one at a time.